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Author | Topic: Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
The 1611 King James, which many think is of divine inspiration, included the Book of Tobit.
It was the first book to say the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan. (right? or wrong?) Then again Satan wasn't in the Old Testament (minus the Apocryphal books which were in the Septuagint and 1611 King James).
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I go by today's KJV which doesn't include Tobit, so the first mention of Satan in the garden is the Book of Revelation. If it's mentioned in Tobit, fine, I have no objection and don't see why it matters one way or the other, it's still later than Genesis and makes the same point that when a fact is revealed has nothing to do with the extrabiblical idea of its supposed origin as a concept.
And you are wrong that Satan is not in the OT: I searched "Satan" at Blue Letter Bible and got: 1 Ch 21:1Job 1:6-7, 12, 2:1-4, 6-7 Psalm 109:6 Zec 3:1-2
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Most liberal (unbelieving) scholars will agree with you. But many conservative scholars disagree. They see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms. There is certainly not unanimity among scholars on your claims above. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
Here is lots of references to Satan and his evolution in the intertestimental period, including the identification with the serpent.
A Dictionary of the Bible: Volume IV: (Part I: Pleroma -- Shimon) - Google Books
quote: "Satan" simply means adversary in the Old Testament. 1 Chronicles 21:1 said the adversary made David to take a census. Kings said "The Lord" made David do it. God seemed to send adversaries in the Old Testament.
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
quote: Most conservative scholars disagree with you actually. Where did Moses and Psalms possible mention the afterlife?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Adversary means Satan; that's why it's translated "Satan." What "adversary" could make David number the people other than an evil spiritual adversary? That's Satan.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
From 2 Samuel 24
quote: The typical response to explain it
quote: But, ask this question. What if there was no record in Chronicles or what if the Chronicles were never written? We would simply be left with 2 Samuel. The fact that both use a 3 masculine singular inflected verb allows the loophole, but I'm sure there would be plenty of other explanations by fundamentalists (and whoever else wanted an excuse). I'm still waiting for the possible allusions about Moses mentioning an afterlife ("Moses"= Genesis to Deuteronomy). I sure don't see it here. Link on Old Testament verses on afterlifehttp://ancientjudaism.homestead.com/Doctrine-of-death.html another Jewish site that answers questionsJust a moment... another Jewish siteAskMoses.com - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info - Ask the Rabbi The last site has to rely on extrabiblical commentaries that Jew's hold sacred.
quote: Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You keep making points that have nothing to do with what "fundamentalists" believe. Jewish interpretations are very rarely in accord with Christian readings of the Bible for one thing. It takes the perspective of the New Testament to understand the Old, so the Jews often misread the Hebrew scriptures. As for who influenced David to do the census, Satan can't act on His own, God always has to will it, or "allow" it. Nothing new to a Christian there. You really aren't saying anything useful about these things.
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
Jews try just as hard as Christians to find anything supporting an afterlife in the Old Testament.
See sites. The last 3 links in my previous post to this one.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Most conservative scholars disagree with you actually. I'm not surprised that you say this. You use the term "fundamentalist" in odd ways, so I'm not surprised that you do the same to "conservative".
Where did Moses and Psalms possible mention the afterlife?
This is not quite what I said. I said that many conservative scholars "see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms." For starters, take a look at Gen 22 and read the account carefully.Then take a look at Psalms 49 and 73. Edited by kbertsche, : Added Psalms."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
I said most conservative scholars say plainly that Moses and Psalms didn't mention a resurrection. An understatement.
The response.
quote: Find somebody who isn't a fundamentalist who sees "Moses" mention a resurrection.
quote: You see a resurrection alluded to in certain verses in in Gen 22, Psalm 49, and Psalm 73. Here is Psalm 73Psalms, PSALM 73 | USCCB Where is the verse that somehow backs up you claim? Here is Psalm 49.
quote: God saving people from death is mined to refer to a resurrection. Grasping at straws indeed. What about all these verses (quoted below from one of my links a few posts above) that far more clearly (seem to) deny an afterlife?
quote: It seems to me that these verses (which mention no resurrection and seem to indicate no thoughts after death) can be argued to be far more clear than the ones you referenced as ones supporting the idea of resurrection in the Psalms. Amazing it is so hard to find support for resurrection in the Old Testament before the Persians burst onto the scene. The oldest Zoroastrian texts are the Gathas. The Persian Gathas are loaded with judgment themes and the afterlife on nearly every verse. Psalms requires a lot of searching to find anything to quote that can even come within a mile of coming close to mentioning a resurrection and judgment. Same with the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy).
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
I got an idea.
I searched for other verses. I just say their Job 26 translation and annotations.
quote: Amazing people deny the clear, and squint to see something that isn't there (like resurrection).
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
LNA, let's stick to the question at hand.
I claimed that many conservative scholars "see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms." You asked for examples from Moss and the Psalms. I responded, "For starters, take a look at Gen 22 and read the account carefully. Then take a look at Psalms 49 and 73." You did not comment at all on Gen 22. Did you even read it? You complained that the Psalm 49 reference was not clear and unambiguous. Did you not read or understand what I said?!? I said that many see "hints" of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible. This means that these passages are NOT clear and unambiguous. You did not find a hint of resurrection in Psalm 73. Try re-reading it again in different translations until you see it."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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kbertsche writes:
There was a discussion of that here recently. You'd have to do a lot of cartwheels to find anything resembling resurrection in that story.
For starters, take a look at Gen 22 and read the account carefully.
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
quote: Here is the Psalm 73 translation (from my same source as chapter 49) with annotation.
quote: What is wrong with this conservative source? On Zoroastrianism influence of the (very) late- Biblical period Jews, can we agree that Zoroastrianism influenced the Book of Enoch? Can we agree that it influenced Manicheanism? Manicheanism was a Gnostic Christian sect that was quite large. The Washington Post has a recent article on the award-winning (today!) Game of Thrones and Zoroastrianism.
quote: The article isn't quite correct, as it leaves out an important detail. The God is from Manicheanism. But the article has lots of links.
quote: Zoroastrianism (in its original form) didn't have reincarnation. It was only after influence from Christianity that some reincarnation concepts came to apply to Zoroaster (among some Zoroastrian). Zoroaster was just a prophet though. Not an Avatar/Messiah. Manicheans all accepted reincarnation and Mani was seen as an Avatar type (a reincarnation of Jesus). Manicheans were an offshoot (from 241 AD)of an offshoot(from 100 AD) of the Jerusalem church community during the (60s AD)decade of James. The religions are all full of a confused web of cross influence, with newer sects constantly rising up. Christianity and Zoroastrianism were constantly changing with new sects. ANOTHER EDIT. see this Guardian link for the reincarnation issues in the show.Game of Thrones: every possible way Jon Snow could come back from the dead | Game of Thrones | The Guardian A character in the show previously, thought that the God was reincarnated in a previous episode as a man(it turned out to be a false messiah type of issue). The Guardian shows speculation that the dead "Jon comes back as Azor Ahai". That would be more in line with the views of early Christianity and then the entire 1000+ year life of the Manichean sect of Christianity. Not so much consistent with Zoroastrianism though there were reincarnation views among some later Zoroastrians involving Zoroaster (I don't think it combined the prophet Zoroaster with the God Mazda or did they?) The Theosophical movement of the 19th century AD was influential and the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions says that some Zoroastrians in India started to almost worship Zoroaster as an Avatar of God. It seems more along the lines of early Jewish Christianity and its offshoots (such as the Manicheans) than Zoroastrianism. The Christian God also seems to have light/darkness themes (like the Qumran Jewish sect), so this show and its religion seems more (early) Christian than Zoroastrian to me. Granted one is an offshoot of another, then the mother religion took (to some extent) reincarnation concepts from the offshoot. The Christian God (as the Gospels and New Testament show us) seems to be more an offshoot of Mazda from Zoroastrianism. But the reincarnation concept is mostly alien to Zoroastrianism. (more a Christian concept) Game of Thrones is based on Manicheanism according to the author/creator of the show. Manichenism is a Jewish Christian sect (or an "offshoot" if you want to remove it as far from its source as possible). Complicated. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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