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Author Topic:   Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me?
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 61 of 114 (787378)
07-11-2016 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
07-11-2016 7:49 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
The 1611 King James, which many think is of divine inspiration, included the Book of Tobit.
It was the first book to say the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan. (right? or wrong?)
Then again Satan wasn't in the Old Testament (minus the Apocryphal books which were in the Septuagint and 1611 King James).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 7:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 8:43 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 62 of 114 (787379)
07-11-2016 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by LamarkNewAge
07-11-2016 8:16 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
I go by today's KJV which doesn't include Tobit, so the first mention of Satan in the garden is the Book of Revelation. If it's mentioned in Tobit, fine, I have no objection and don't see why it matters one way or the other, it's still later than Genesis and makes the same point that when a fact is revealed has nothing to do with the extrabiblical idea of its supposed origin as a concept.
And you are wrong that Satan is not in the OT: I searched "Satan" at Blue Letter Bible and got:
1 Ch 21:1
Job 1:6-7, 12, 2:1-4, 6-7
Psalm 109:6
Zec 3:1-2

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-11-2016 8:16 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-12-2016 12:56 PM Faith has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 63 of 114 (787384)
07-11-2016 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by LamarkNewAge
07-11-2016 7:09 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
quote:
But it is not mentioned in the massive Psalms.
Moses didn't mention it (Genesis-Deuteronomy).
There might have been a temporary raising of the dead, but every person soon died. Then no resurrection.
Joshua to Esther didn't mention it.
It just wasn't mentioned.
Only the very late book of Daniel and possibly Isaiah.
It was a late comer.
And the conservative Sadducees who ran the Temple felt the idea of resurrection was contrary to the scripture.
  —LNA
Most liberal (unbelieving) scholars will agree with you. But many conservative scholars disagree. They see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms. There is certainly not unanimity among scholars on your claims above.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-11-2016 7:09 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-12-2016 1:01 PM kbertsche has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 64 of 114 (787401)
07-12-2016 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
07-11-2016 8:43 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
Here is lots of references to Satan and his evolution in the intertestimental period, including the identification with the serpent.
A Dictionary of the Bible: Volume IV: (Part I: Pleroma -- Shimon) - Google Books
quote:
And you are wrong that Satan is not in the OT: I searched "Satan" at Blue Letter Bible and got:
1 Ch 21:1
Job 1:6-7, 12, 2:1-4, 6-7
Psalm 109:6
Zec 3:1-2
"Satan" simply means adversary in the Old Testament.
1 Chronicles 21:1 said the adversary made David to take a census. Kings said "The Lord" made David do it.
God seemed to send adversaries in the Old Testament.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 8:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 07-12-2016 1:13 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 65 of 114 (787402)
07-12-2016 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by kbertsche
07-11-2016 10:23 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
quote:
Most liberal (unbelieving) scholars will agree with you. But many conservative scholars disagree. They see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms. There is certainly not unanimity among scholars on your claims above.
Most conservative scholars disagree with you actually.
Where did Moses and Psalms possible mention the afterlife?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by kbertsche, posted 07-11-2016 10:23 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by kbertsche, posted 07-13-2016 1:31 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 66 of 114 (787403)
07-12-2016 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by LamarkNewAge
07-12-2016 12:56 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
Adversary means Satan; that's why it's translated "Satan." What "adversary" could make David number the people other than an evil spiritual adversary? That's Satan.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-12-2016 12:56 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-12-2016 2:34 PM Faith has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 67 of 114 (787404)
07-12-2016 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
07-12-2016 1:13 PM


The census of David raises interesting questions.
From 2 Samuel 24
quote:
Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." So the king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, "Now go throughout all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and count the people, that I may know the number of the people."
The typical response to explain it
quote:
a. The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David: The translators of the New King James Version believe that "He" in this sentence applies to God, because they capitalize it. Yet 1 Chronicles 21:1 tells us, Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. The best explanation is that Satan prompted King David and is the "he" of 2 Samuel 24:1. Yet the Lord expressly allowed it as a chastisement against David.
i. "Now the 'he' there, we assume would be the Lord. But as we find out in 1 Chronicles, chapter one, it was Satan that moved David's heart, to the numbering of the people. So God opened the door, and allowed Satan to move in and tempt David." (Smith)
Untitled Document
But, ask this question.
What if there was no record in Chronicles or what if the Chronicles were never written?
We would simply be left with 2 Samuel.
The fact that both use a 3 masculine singular inflected verb allows the loophole, but I'm sure there would be plenty of other explanations by fundamentalists (and whoever else wanted an excuse).
I'm still waiting for the possible allusions about Moses mentioning an afterlife ("Moses"= Genesis to Deuteronomy).
I sure don't see it here.
Link on Old Testament verses on afterlife
http://ancientjudaism.homestead.com/Doctrine-of-death.html
another Jewish site that answers questions
Just a moment...
another Jewish site
AskMoses.com - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info - Ask the Rabbi
The last site has to rely on extrabiblical commentaries that Jew's hold sacred.
quote:
There is mention of those students who dissented from the mainstream and rejected the concept of reward and punishment. These are the Sadducees, the forerunners of the Karaites, who rejected anything not explicitly stated in the Scriptures. The talmudic sages took great efforts to rebuke these people and separate themselves from them, declaring that they had lost their share in the G-d of Israel and in the world to come.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 07-12-2016 1:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 07-12-2016 8:28 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 114 (787416)
07-12-2016 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by LamarkNewAge
07-12-2016 2:34 PM


Re: The census of David raises interesting questions.
You keep making points that have nothing to do with what "fundamentalists" believe. Jewish interpretations are very rarely in accord with Christian readings of the Bible for one thing. It takes the perspective of the New Testament to understand the Old, so the Jews often misread the Hebrew scriptures. As for who influenced David to do the census, Satan can't act on His own, God always has to will it, or "allow" it. Nothing new to a Christian there. You really aren't saying anything useful about these things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-12-2016 2:34 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-12-2016 8:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 69 of 114 (787417)
07-12-2016 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
07-12-2016 8:28 PM


Re: The census of David raises interesting questions.
Jews try just as hard as Christians to find anything supporting an afterlife in the Old Testament.
See sites. The last 3 links in my previous post to this one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 07-12-2016 8:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 70 of 114 (787421)
07-13-2016 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by LamarkNewAge
07-12-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Phat asked about "Zoroastrianism to any degree" in peoples beliefs.
Most conservative scholars disagree with you actually.
I'm not surprised that you say this. You use the term "fundamentalist" in odd ways, so I'm not surprised that you do the same to "conservative".
Where did Moses and Psalms possible mention the afterlife?
This is not quite what I said. I said that many conservative scholars "see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms."
For starters, take a look at Gen 22 and read the account carefully.
Then take a look at Psalms 49 and 73.
Edited by kbertsche, : Added Psalms.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-12-2016 1:01 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-13-2016 11:59 AM kbertsche has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 71 of 114 (787428)
07-13-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by kbertsche
07-13-2016 1:31 AM


Zoroastrianism is the reason the Ols Testament has ressurrection (albeit late).
I said most conservative scholars say plainly that Moses and Psalms didn't mention a resurrection. An understatement.
The response.
quote:
I'm not surprised that you say this. You use the term "fundamentalist" in odd ways, so I'm not surprised that you do the same to "conservative".
Find somebody who isn't a fundamentalist who sees "Moses" mention a resurrection.
quote:
I said that many conservative scholars "see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms."
For starters, take a look at Gen 22 and read the account carefully.
Then take a look at Psalms 49 and 73.
You see a resurrection alluded to in certain verses in in Gen 22, Psalm 49, and Psalm 73.
Here is Psalm 73
Psalms, PSALM 73 | USCCB
Where is the verse that somehow backs up you claim?
Here is Psalm 49.
quote:
Of those who trust in their wealth
and boast of their abundant riches?b
8
*No man can ransom even a brother,
or pay to God his own ransom.c
9
The redemption of his soul is costly;
and he will pass away forever.
10
Will he live on forever, then,
and never see the Pit of Corruption?
11
Indeed, he will see that the wise die,
and the fool will perish together with the senseless,d
and they leave their wealth to others.e
12
Their tombs are their homes forever,
their dwellings through all generations,
They named countries after themselves
13
but man does not abide in splendor.
He is like the beaststhey perish.f
II
14
This is the way of those who trust in themselves,
and the end of those who take pleasure in their own mouth.
Selah
15
Like a herd of sheep they will be put into Sheol,
and Death will shepherd them.
Straight to the grave they descend,
where their form will waste away,
Sheol will be their palace.
16
But God will redeem my life,
will take me* from the hand of Sheol.g
....
* [49:16] Will take me: the same Hebrew verb is used of God taking up a favored servant: Enoch in Gn 5:24; Elijah in 2 Kgs 2:11—12; the righteous person in Ps 73:24. The verse apparently states the hope that God will rescue the faithful psalmist in the same manner.
Psalms, PSALM 49 | USCCB
God saving people from death is mined to refer to a resurrection.
Grasping at straws indeed.
What about all these verses (quoted below from one of my links a few posts above) that far more clearly (seem to) deny an afterlife?
quote:
Ecclesiastes or Kohelet 9:10
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
....
Psalm 6, this is what the Psalmist wrote, "Return, YHWH, deliver my soul: oh save me for Thy mercies' sake. For in death [there is] no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?"
....
Psalm 115:17, "The dead praise not YHWH, neither any that go down into silence. "
....
Deuteronomy 31:14-16...
"And YHWH said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation... And YHWH said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers..."
....
Hezekiah said these words in Isaiah 38:18-19, "For the grave cannot praise Thee, death can [not] celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee, as I [do] this day: the father to the children shall make known Thy truth."
....
Job 14
1. Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
2. He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and
continueth not.
3. And dost Thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment
with Thee?
4. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
5. Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with Thee, Thou hast
appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
6. Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
7. For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender
branch thereof will not cease.
8. Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
9. Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
10. But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11. As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12. So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
13. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy
wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14. If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my
change come.
....
http://ancientjudaism.homestead.com/Doctrine-of-death.html
It seems to me that these verses (which mention no resurrection and seem to indicate no thoughts after death) can be argued to be far more clear than the ones you referenced as ones supporting the idea of resurrection in the Psalms.
Amazing it is so hard to find support for resurrection in the Old Testament before the Persians burst onto the scene.
The oldest Zoroastrian texts are the Gathas.
The Persian Gathas are loaded with judgment themes and the afterlife on nearly every verse.
Psalms requires a lot of searching to find anything to quote that can even come within a mile of coming close to mentioning a resurrection and judgment.
Same with the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by kbertsche, posted 07-13-2016 1:31 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by kbertsche, posted 07-13-2016 10:44 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 72 of 114 (787430)
07-13-2016 12:14 PM


While I was on the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' website.
I got an idea.
I searched for other verses.
I just say their Job 26 translation and annotations.
quote:
12
By his power he stilled Sea,
by his skill he crushed Rahab;*
13
By his wind the heavens were made clear,
his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.* f
....
* [26:12] Rahab: another name for the primeval sea-monster; see notes on Jb 3:8 and Ps 89:11; cf. also Jb 7:12; 9:13.
* [26:13] The fleeing serpent: the same term occurs in Is 27:1 in apposition to Leviathan; see note on Jb 3:8.
Job, CHAPTER 26 | USCCB
Amazing people deny the clear, and squint to see something that isn't there (like resurrection).

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 73 of 114 (787436)
07-13-2016 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by LamarkNewAge
07-13-2016 11:59 AM


Re: Zoroastrianism is the reason the Ols Testament has ressurrection (albeit late).
LNA, let's stick to the question at hand.
I claimed that many conservative scholars "see numerous hints of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible, including in Moses and Psalms."
You asked for examples from Moss and the Psalms. I responded, "For starters, take a look at Gen 22 and read the account carefully. Then take a look at Psalms 49 and 73."
You did not comment at all on Gen 22. Did you even read it?
You complained that the Psalm 49 reference was not clear and unambiguous. Did you not read or understand what I said?!? I said that many see "hints" of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible. This means that these passages are NOT clear and unambiguous.
You did not find a hint of resurrection in Psalm 73. Try re-reading it again in different translations until you see it.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-13-2016 11:59 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 07-14-2016 12:44 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 75 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-14-2016 1:19 PM kbertsche has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 74 of 114 (787453)
07-14-2016 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by kbertsche
07-13-2016 10:44 PM


Re: Zoroastrianism is the reason the Ols Testament has ressurrection (albeit late).
kbertsche writes:
For starters, take a look at Gen 22 and read the account carefully.
There was a discussion of that here recently. You'd have to do a lot of cartwheels to find anything resembling resurrection in that story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by kbertsche, posted 07-13-2016 10:44 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 75 of 114 (787454)
07-14-2016 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by kbertsche
07-13-2016 10:44 PM


Re: Zoroastrianism is the reason the Ols Testament has ressurrection (albeit late).
quote:
You complained that the Psalm 49 reference was not clear and unambiguous. Did you not read or understand what I said?!? I said that many see "hints" of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible. This means that these passages are NOT clear and unambiguous.
You did not find a hint of resurrection in Psalm 73. Try re-reading it again in different translations until you see it.
Here is the Psalm 73 translation (from my same source as chapter 49) with annotation.
quote:
24
With your counsel you guide me,
and at the end receive me with honor.*
25
Whom else have I in the heavens?
None beside you delights me on earth.
26
Though my flesh and my heart fail,
God is the rock of my heart, my portion forever.
27
But those who are far from you perish;
you destroy those unfaithful to you.
28
As for me, to be near God is my good,
to make the Lord GOD my refuge.
I shall declare all your works
in the gates of daughter Zion.*
....
* [73:24] And at the end receive me with honor: a perhaps deliberately enigmatic verse. It is understood by some commentators as reception into heavenly glory, hence the traditional translation, receive me into glory. The Hebrew verb can indeed refer to mysterious divine elevation of a righteous person into God’s domain: Enoch in Gn 5:24; Elijah in 2 Kgs 2:11—12; the righteous psalmist in Ps 49:16. Personal resurrection in the Old Testament, however, is clearly attested only in the second century B.C. The verse is perhaps best left unspecified as a reference to God’s nearness and protection.
Psalms, PSALM 73 | USCCB
What is wrong with this conservative source?
On Zoroastrianism influence of the (very) late- Biblical period Jews, can we agree that Zoroastrianism influenced the Book of Enoch? Can we agree that it influenced Manicheanism? Manicheanism was a Gnostic Christian sect that was quite large.
The Washington Post has a recent article on the award-winning (today!) Game of Thrones and Zoroastrianism.
quote:
WorldViews
The ancient Persian god that may be at the heart of ‘Game of Thrones’
....
Azor Ahai is a mythological figure in the books and the show, a demigod warrior from an ancient time who triumphed over darkness in a great battle while bearing a magic weapon blessed by R'hllor, a deity also known as the Lord of Light or the fire god. There's a prophecy that he will be reborn at a time of similar peril and that's where the speculation for the upcoming season comes in.
....
But in the feverish world of "Game of Thrones" fan-sites and discussion boards, a fair amount of thought has been given to the possible historical provenance of the Azor Ahai legend. Martin himself has said he developed the idea of the monotheistic, fire-worshiping faith surrounding R'llhor from Zoroastrianism, a pre-Islamic religion that emerged thousands of years ago in what's now Iran.
This sense of eternal struggle and combat with an evil Other is hardly unique to Zoroastrianism. But it is the most clear blueprint for the cosmic clash being set up in "Game of Thrones," where Ahura Mazda is a composite of both R'llhor and Azor Ahai, and where a righteous hero of fire will eventually take on a relentless evil from the lands of ice.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...e-heart-of-game-of-thrones
The article isn't quite correct, as it leaves out an important detail. The God is from Manicheanism. But the article has lots of links.
quote:
Secrets of Game of Thrones: George R.R. Martin reveals details about the World of Ice and Fire
....
In her youth, Melisandre was sold to the Red Temple of the god R’hllor, the lord of light, worshipped by a Manichaean religion that Martin says was inspired by Zoroastrianism.
Secrets of "Game of Thrones": George R.R. Martin reveals details about the World of Ice and Fire | Salon.com
Zoroastrianism (in its original form) didn't have reincarnation. It was only after influence from Christianity that some reincarnation concepts came to apply to Zoroaster (among some Zoroastrian). Zoroaster was just a prophet though. Not an Avatar/Messiah. Manicheans all accepted reincarnation and Mani was seen as an Avatar type (a reincarnation of Jesus). Manicheans were an offshoot (from 241 AD)of an offshoot(from 100 AD) of the Jerusalem church community during the (60s AD)decade of James.
The religions are all full of a confused web of cross influence, with newer sects constantly rising up. Christianity and Zoroastrianism were constantly changing with new sects.
ANOTHER EDIT. see this Guardian link for the reincarnation issues in the show.
Game of Thrones: every possible way Jon Snow could come back from the dead | Game of Thrones | The Guardian
A character in the show previously, thought that the God was reincarnated in a previous episode as a man(it turned out to be a false messiah type of issue). The Guardian shows speculation that the dead "Jon comes back as Azor Ahai". That would be more in line with the views of early Christianity and then the entire 1000+ year life of the Manichean sect of Christianity. Not so much consistent with Zoroastrianism though there were reincarnation views among some later Zoroastrians involving Zoroaster (I don't think it combined the prophet Zoroaster with the God Mazda or did they?) The Theosophical movement of the 19th century AD was influential and the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions says that some Zoroastrians in India started to almost worship Zoroaster as an Avatar of God.
It seems more along the lines of early Jewish Christianity and its offshoots (such as the Manicheans) than Zoroastrianism. The Christian God also seems to have light/darkness themes (like the Qumran Jewish sect), so this show and its religion seems more (early) Christian than Zoroastrian to me. Granted one is an offshoot of another, then the mother religion took (to some extent) reincarnation concepts from the offshoot.
The Christian God (as the Gospels and New Testament show us) seems to be more an offshoot of Mazda from Zoroastrianism.
But the reincarnation concept is mostly alien to Zoroastrianism. (more a Christian concept)
Game of Thrones is based on Manicheanism according to the author/creator of the show. Manichenism is a Jewish Christian sect (or an "offshoot" if you want to remove it as far from its source as possible).
Complicated.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by kbertsche, posted 07-13-2016 10:44 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by kbertsche, posted 07-14-2016 10:50 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
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