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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 466 of 1163 (787749)
07-21-2016 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Faith
07-21-2016 9:22 AM


Re: Corals weren't generated during the Flood; they were killed like everything else
I inferred it from the drawing itself that shows a straight contact line above each filled channel, and I do think it's quite possible for a channel to be eroded underground.
Why would the upper contact not be conformable? The channel is obviously filled by river sediments.
In fact, if you look at a lot of channels the upper contacts can be convex upward rather than downward sagging. This is because of compaction of the sediments (hence: still soft sediment and not supporting undeground openings) whereby the sands are not as compacted and act as a resistant knot in the system.
So, no. That is not a good inference.
Aren't karsts formed underground?
In limestone, not in coal sequences which are composed mostly of siltstones, mudtstone and sandstone. In fact, most coal mines I've been in are of such incompetent rock that we've learned to depend on them collapsing all the way to the surface after mining. Open spaces just don't last very long.
Don't salt domes penetrate up through strata from deep underground?
See above. I'm not sure what your comparison is. The presence of large amounts of water and evaporative deposits is incompatible.
Doesn't the chemical-laden water that cements the rocks trickle through the rocks?
Are you going to talk about deposition or erosion? I don't see gravels in places such as this.
Anyway even if I give a better interpretation later, I don't think it's important to this topic whether water ran in these channels at the surface or not since the surface was still just flat sediment and not a landscape.
This has become a mantra for you. We keep asking you to defend your points and all you can say is that you 'don't think it's important'.
Your inability to explain things should be a red flag to you that there is something wrong with your premise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Faith, posted 07-21-2016 9:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 467 of 1163 (787750)
07-21-2016 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Faith
07-21-2016 6:38 AM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
Is that your theory then, they lived in the mountains? But aren't the dinosaur beds mostly found in the plains or west of the Rockies?
The dinosaur beds are just the places where (a) there was a nice depositional environment where bone stood a good chance of being buried by sediment (b) there is a nice lot of exposed rock today so we can spot the bones.
Also, aren't dinosauria supposed to need lots of vegetation to eat. Would that have been found in the mountains?
Sure. You get vegetation on mountains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Faith, posted 07-21-2016 6:38 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 468 of 1163 (787752)
07-21-2016 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2016 3:42 AM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
Hi Dr
Dr writes:
Whereas when we look at the actual terrestrial sedimentary rocks we find abundant evidence of plant life. This is another reason why we should look at the fossil record, like scientists do, instead of looking at cartoons, like creationists do.
One of my stupid questions.
Would plant life in the sedimentary rock mean that the place the plant life was above water at one time and later covered with water?
Remember I am Old Earth and have no problem with the date that you would put on that taking place whatever that date may be.
Dr writes:
I don't see what it is you're finding hard to understand here. Are you absolutely incapable of concrete thought? I can understand how you might get confused by genetics, but here we are talking about very basic material stuff that everyone's seen: mud; sand; water; grass; trees.
Another of my stupid questions.
Sand, mud, water, grass, and the remains of trees are all found at depth's of 6 miles under the surface of the earth under 22,000 psi. How did these materials get to such great depth's?
I would truly like your opinion of how those material's got to the position they are found.
I can find no information answering my question. If there is some please point it out to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 3:42 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 11:36 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 470 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 11:56 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 472 by edge, posted 07-21-2016 12:45 PM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 469 of 1163 (787753)
07-21-2016 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by ICANT
07-21-2016 11:29 AM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
Would plant life in the sedimentary rock mean that the place the plant life was above water at one time and later covered with water?
Not necessarily. Just that it was above sediment at one time and later covered with sediment.
Sand, mud, water, grass, and the remains of trees are all found at depth's of 6 miles under the surface of the earth under 22,000 psi. How did these materials get to such great depth's?
Well, point me out the specific locale, and I'll tell you. The answer will probably have the words "sedimentary basin" in it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 11:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 2:57 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 470 of 1163 (787756)
07-21-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by ICANT
07-21-2016 11:29 AM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
ICANT writes:
Sand, mud, water, grass, and the remains of trees are all found at depth's of 6 miles under the surface of the earth under 22,000 psi. How did these materials get to such great depth's?
A little bit at a time.
To see the processes happening, you can look out the window.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 11:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 3:05 PM ringo has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 471 of 1163 (787759)
07-21-2016 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2016 11:19 AM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
The dinosaur beds are just the places where (a) there was a nice depositional environment where bone stood a good chance of being buried by sediment (b) there is a nice lot of exposed rock today so we can spot the bones.
What Faith does not get, nor ever will, is that most dinosaur bones are actually found in stream sediments ... sand bars and the like.
What one needs is the accumulation of sediments (or volcanics) to preserve the fossils. I once found a mammoth femur in a lakeshore environment that was covered by volcanic ash. Or one could look at the La Brea tar pits ... there are a number of ways to manage the preservation in the terrestrial environment. It's just that they are smaller than marine environments and generally subject to later erosion.
Oh, wait! Erosion doesn't exist in the geologic record...
Silly me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 11:19 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Faith, posted 07-21-2016 9:15 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 472 of 1163 (787760)
07-21-2016 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by ICANT
07-21-2016 11:29 AM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
One of my stupid questions.
Well, it's not stupid yet.
Would plant life in the sedimentary rock mean that the place the plant life was above water at one time and later covered with water?
Sure. Happens all the time. They are called marine transgressions and there are hundreds of them in the geological record. In fact, we may be seeing it going on right now. It does not mean that there is a flood of biblical dimensions.
Remember I am Old Earth and have no problem with the date that you would put on that taking place whatever that date may be.
Then you understand that millions of years is a long time. Processes that take long times are not visible to us humans who have only been aware for a few hundred years.
Another of my stupid questions.
Sand, mud, water, grass, and the remains of trees are all found at depth's of 6 miles under the surface of the earth under 22,000 psi. How did these materials get to such great depth's?
I would truly like your opinion of how those material's got to the position they are found.
I can find no information answering my question. If there is some please point it out to me.
The short story: Tectonism and subsidence. Right now the floor of the Gulf of Mexico is subsiding. Just look at the issues with NOLA. And no, George Bush is not pushing the crust down.
What's happening there is that the sheer weight of sediments is loading the local oceanic crust.
Same thing with the Hawaiian Islands. The are so heavy that they create a trough in the sea floor around them.
There are plenty of other reasons that we can discuss, but I'm done for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 11:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by ICANT, posted 07-22-2016 12:26 PM edge has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 473 of 1163 (787761)
07-21-2016 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by edge
07-21-2016 8:42 AM


Bizarro
The totally bizarre thing about this whole line of discussion is that it seems that Faith thinks that if the earth is old, as mainstream geology has determined, then we should see fully functional landscapes buried beneath loads of sediment. But if the global flood story is true, we should see highly organized sediments and fossil sequences that are structured into discrete, systematic units. The logic of this is just completely dumbfounding. It is like saying that good drivers have lots of traffic violations, accidents and insurance claims while the lousy drivers have impeccable driving records. I am not sure there is any remedy for this contention.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by edge, posted 07-21-2016 8:42 AM edge has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 474 of 1163 (787762)
07-21-2016 1:35 PM


TOPIC WARNING
Please people... paleontology, fossil sorting. You know.. the topic?
Please take the fascinating geology discussions to another thread. There have been some great ones in the past. Find one or start a new one.

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 475 of 1163 (787764)
07-21-2016 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2016 11:36 AM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
Hi Dr
Dr writes:
Well, point me out the specific locale, and I'll tell you. The answer will probably have the words "sedimentary basin" in it.
The Kola superdeep borehole of 7.5 miles located on the Kola Peninsula of Russia.
Fossils of single-celled organisms were found at 4.3 miles as well as water. The temperature at the bottom of the hole reached 356 degrees which made it impossible to drill further as there is no material yet that can withstand the heat and cut the rock without melting.
So how did that water and fossils get there?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 11:36 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by JonF, posted 07-21-2016 2:58 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 478 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 3:34 PM ICANT has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 476 of 1163 (787765)
07-21-2016 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by ICANT
07-21-2016 2:57 PM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
Subduction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 2:57 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 477 of 1163 (787766)
07-21-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by ringo
07-21-2016 11:56 AM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
Hi ringo
ringo writes:
To see the processes happening, you can look out the window.
I would agree with that assessment that it got there a little bit at the time.
But wouldn't that require the earth to have been much smaller in diameter in the past than it is now?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by JonF, posted 07-21-2016 6:55 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 490 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:43 AM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 478 of 1163 (787767)
07-21-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by ICANT
07-21-2016 2:57 PM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
Fossils of single-celled organisms were found at 4.3 miles as well as water.
So no grass and trees then?
So how did that water and fossils get there?
All I can find on the Internet are uninformative gee-whiz type articles. It's altogether possible that the hard data was all published in Russian. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 2:57 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by ICANT, posted 07-22-2016 1:23 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 479 of 1163 (787788)
07-21-2016 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by ICANT
07-21-2016 3:05 PM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 3:05 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 480 of 1163 (787793)
07-21-2016 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by edge
07-21-2016 12:34 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
What Faith does not get, nor ever will, is that most dinosaur bones are actually found in stream sediments ... sand bars and the like.
Well we could argue about that but it's really irrelevant in the current context. Even if the sediments are stream sediments there is still the problem that sedimentary rock covers all the territory where supposedly there was a landscape with all the necessities to sustain the life of the dinosaur before it got buried in the stream sediments which became the slab of rock that covers all that territory. You still have to explain how this could be the case. Was the landscape there at one time but it all became sedimentary rock? And if so how did that happen? And no dinosaurs survived? But wasn't that due to the meteor? And what about all the other living things? Where did they go when their environment got squashed under all that sediment?
What one needs is the accumulation of sediments (or volcanics) to preserve the fossils. I once found a mammoth femur in a lakeshore environment that was covered by volcanic ash. Or one could look at the La Brea tar pits ... there are a number of ways to manage the preservation in the terrestrial environment. It's just that they are smaller than marine environments and generally subject to later erosion.
Oh, wait! Erosion doesn't exist in the geologic record...
Well, it doesn't, not on the scale that would have occurred were the surface of the rock ever on the surface of the earth for any appreciable length of time, certainly the millions of years ascribed to most of the rocks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by edge, posted 07-21-2016 12:34 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 10:34 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 484 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2016 3:32 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 489 by edge, posted 07-22-2016 10:47 AM Faith has replied

  
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