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Author Topic:   The Geological Timescale is Fiction whose only reality is stacks of rock
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 121 of 1257 (788053)
07-25-2016 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
07-25-2016 8:10 AM


Re: RETHINKING THE NORTH AMERICAN PALEOGEOGRAPHY
quote:

However, isn't this an odd thing to say, that "the area wasn't inundated by water during the period when the fossil beds were formed," because these shallow seas are usually invoked to explain the deposition of a particular layer or formation, meaning the fossil beds

More likely to explain limestone deposits. Maybe marine fossil beds.

But anyway if it has been established that many dinosaur fossils are found in marine deposits you must have a few examples, or at least know which formation they come from. Surely the odd thing is that you are relying on a speculative inference without producing anything concrete.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 8:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 1257 (788054)
07-25-2016 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Pressie
07-25-2016 7:15 AM


Re: Second cartoon from OP removed
I'm going to remove that cartoon because it isn't conveying what it was meant to convey,...

Isn't it some creationist hypothesis that the earth was flatter before the magic flood?

Your cartoon represented their 'thinking'. Then you pretended that was 'scientific' thinking.Then you put up a straw man pretending that it's 'science'. No wonder you took it away. You're very dishonest, Faith.

The cartoon of the dinosaur peering out from the strata was meant to represent my own conclusion that there couldn't have been landscapes during any time period, that during the entire laying down of the entire geologic column the strata is all there ever was of any "landscape" (except where a layer got permanently exposed at the surface after all were laid down.)

But it didn't convey that idea, instead conveying an idea of strata falling on the head of the dinosaur, so I removed it.

The other cartoon showing flatness as far as the eye can see during the various time periods, in contrast with the surface of the earth as we know it now, still says what I want to say.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2016 7:15 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2016 8:40 AM Faith has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 123 of 1257 (788055)
07-25-2016 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
07-25-2016 8:10 AM


Re: RETHINKING THE NORTH AMERICAN PALEOGEOGRAPHY
Faith writes:

Probably many times. I don't always get to read every post and if it doesn't make sense to me right away the less likely it is that I'll read it but go on to one I can deal with more immediately.

It's because you have no idea what geology entails. You think that the Jurassic is a "slab" of rock. It isn't.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 8:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 8:46 AM Pressie has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 124 of 1257 (788056)
07-25-2016 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
07-25-2016 8:20 AM


Re: Second cartoon from OP removed
This one is funny.

Faith writes:

The cartoon of the dinosaur peering out from the strata was meant to represent my own conclusion that there couldn't have been landscapes during any time period

He-he-he. Elephants don't peer out of rocks during our own time periods and are around on the landscapes we all experience.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 8:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 8:44 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 1257 (788057)
07-25-2016 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Pressie
07-25-2016 8:40 AM


Re: Second cartoon from OP removed
Gosh, and here I thought you might be going to apologize for calling me dishonest. Fat chance.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2016 8:40 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 1257 (788058)
07-25-2016 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Pressie
07-25-2016 8:32 AM


Re: RETHINKING THE NORTH AMERICAN PALEOGEOGRAPHY
Oh but I do know what Geology entails, a lot of imaginary stuff based on a few clues in a rock that is called a time period but is really just a slab of rock.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2016 8:32 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2016 8:49 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 131 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-25-2016 12:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 127 of 1257 (788059)
07-25-2016 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
07-25-2016 8:46 AM


Re: RETHINKING THE NORTH AMERICAN PALEOGEOGRAPHY
You call a time period a slab of rock?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 8:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 1257 (788060)
07-25-2016 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
07-25-2016 2:01 AM


a look at Reality.
Think Faith.

Faith writes:

The dinosaurs found in the fossil beds of the Chinle formation did not live under water, and that many volcanoes would surely make that locale unlivable for anything. Perhaps you'd like to move to a place that has a dozen active volcanoes.

Take a look at this map. Can you see any triangles on this map?

Does anyone live on the US West Coast?

Does anyone live on the Hawaiian Islands?

Once again, reality says you are simply wrong.

Faith writes:

Yes the dinosaur beds are not in California. That's because there was no California during the time period we are discussing. The description of the Chinle formation does not mention California for that reason, only those six states that are clearly to the west of the Rockies according to that map. According to the paleogeographic maps that whole area was "deep ocean" no matter what you prefer to believe about it.

And yet as you have been shown, that is not and was not the case for all of the over 200 million years that dinosaurs roamed over what is now the US. And some dinosaurs fossils have been found in California.

Once again, reality says you are simply wrong.

Faith writes:

According to the maps the entire area west of the Rockies was under deep ocean water throughout the entire Mesozoic era, through the Triassic, the Jurassic and the Cretaceous periods. East of the Rockies the epeiric seas transgressed and regressed but there was water present in the middle of the continent throughout the Jurassic and Cretaceous. The source of this information is a respected textbook on historical geology.

Much of the west coast was formed by chains of islands merging with the continental North American plate and the Rockies and Sierra Nevada Range are not the same thing. And yes, changes happened but more than just rising and falling land levels, there was also land movement east and west and also north and south. But just as today, things happen slowly. Remember that southern California is actually moving north towards San Francisco?

The changes are not the simple cartoons you portray, but rather continuations of exactly the same forces that are going on now.

Maps are snapshots. A map does not show what the environment was for millions of years but rather what the map maker is showing as a rough guide.

Luckily though there is a better guide that does show the whole story and that is the geology itself. When the geology itself is examined we can see far more than what any map can show; we can see what lived at a given time, where it lived at that time, what else lived there at that time. The geology itself is not just a snap shot but a time lapse movie that tells us what the reality of the Geological Timescale is as opposed to the fiction you try to market.

AbE:

The geology itself also tells us what the surface was, whether it was a marsh, a bog, a river, a desert, a savannah, a lava bed, a lake or sea. Often it tells us even more, for example it tells us about seasonal wet and dry variations and tells us on a year by year scale. And things that get embedded in the geology can tell us yet more, such as whether the general climate at that time and at that place was warm or cold.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Edited by jar, : See AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 2:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 1257 (788061)
07-25-2016 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
07-25-2016 4:49 AM


Re: RETHINKING THE NORTH AMERICAN PALEOGEOGRAPHY
Faith writes:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but dinosaur fossils are pretty rare in the eastern USA.

Dinosaur fossils are pretty rare almost everywhere but yes Virginia, there really are East Coast dinosaur fossils.

Remember. much of the exposed rock on the East Coast of the US is too old to contain dinosaur fossils; we find dinosaur fossils in areas where the current exposed surface is material from the times when dinosaurs lived. Here is a map and maginfying glass where you can see where the surface of what would be North America from 225 million years ago to about 65 million years ago exists as the current surface today.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 4:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16086
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 130 of 1257 (788064)
07-25-2016 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-25-2016 1:08 AM


Re: How we get from rock to landscape to rock, that's the question
Sorry, I still don't get what you are trying to say. I also don't care.

Evidently.

So perhaps you should stop trying to argue against a point of view that you cannot understand and will make no effort to understand. Obviously even if there was a flaw in geology, you wouldn't be able to find it, because of your astonishing incapacity to grasp what it is that geologists claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 1:08 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16086
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 131 of 1257 (788065)
07-25-2016 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
07-25-2016 8:46 AM


Clash Of Faiths
Faith writes:

Oh but I do know what Geology entails ...

Faith writes:

Sorry, I still don't get what you are trying to say. I also don't care.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 8:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by kjsimons, posted 07-25-2016 12:34 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 665
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 132 of 1257 (788066)
07-25-2016 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Dr Adequate
07-25-2016 12:28 PM


Re: Clash Of Faiths
Faith's behavior on this site leads me to believe that she has a "... strong reality spam filter".

Borrowed from Sunday's Non Sequitur strip.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-25-2016 12:28 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 1257 (788067)
07-25-2016 1:05 PM


Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
In the Cretaceous period as shown on the paleogeographic map of that period (in the textbook referred to), the Inland Seaway covered the middle section of the continent from the edge of the mountains of Nevada to the Great Lakes. This was part of the Zuni sequence that started in the late Jurassic and lasted for the entire Cretaceous period, some 79 million years. There is evidence of fluctuating shorelines of the seaway but the water was there for the entire Cretaceous period.

There are lots of fossil dinosaurs from the Cretaceous period. A major fossil formation is the Dakota which is one of the layers in the Grand Staircase diagram that has been posted a few times here. The Wikipedia article on this formation starts out saying it is found east of the Inland Seaway which would suggest there wasn't the problem I've been describing of there being no land area for the dinosaurs to live on because of the sea transgressions.

But the Dakota does not exist merely east of the seaway, it is also found in Utah (the Grand Staircase) and Colorado, which are certainly located in the area that was covered by the seaway. It is also found in Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, most of which are at least partly in the same area that was covered by the seaway.

I suggest that this does show the contradiction I was talking about earlier, between the claim on the one hand that the dinosaur fossils in this formation lived on the spot where they were eventually buried, but on the other hand, for that entire time period most of that land that became the Dakota formation was under water, so they could not have lived there. We know they died there because their fossils are in the strata of the formation found in those various states located in the area of the inland seaway.

Seems to me this comes down to evidence that the dinosaurs did not live in that time period; they only died in that time period, and died by drowning.


Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2016 1:28 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 135 by edge, posted 07-25-2016 2:20 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 136 by jar, posted 07-25-2016 2:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 134 of 1257 (788069)
07-25-2016 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
07-25-2016 1:05 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Not a very good attempt. Did you read the article ?

For instance:


Dinosaur fossils are very rare in the Dakota Formation and most of them come from Kansas. The best specimen is a partial skeleton of a nodosaurid ankylosaur called Silvisaurus condrayi.[12][13] Other isolated ankylosaur material may also belong to Silvisaurus.[14] Fossil dinosaur tracks are also known and include theropod and ankylosaur.[14] A large ornithopod femur is known from Burt County, Nebraska as well as fossil dinosaur tracks from Jefferson County

That hardly seems promising.

While I haven't fully grasped the description on Wikipedia it seems at least possible that a portion of the Dakota Formation is marine, although the Mancos Shake seems to be the main rock of the seaway. But whether there are any dinosaur fossils in the marine portion remains to be seen. The references might help.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 1:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4470
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 135 of 1257 (788071)
07-25-2016 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
07-25-2016 1:05 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
In the Cretaceous period as shown on the paleogeographic map of that period (in the textbook referred to), the Inland Seaway covered the middle section of the continent from the edge of the mountains of Nevada to the Great Lakes. This was part of the Zuni sequence that started in the late Jurassic and lasted for the entire Cretaceous period, some 79 million years. There is evidence of fluctuating shorelines of the seaway but the water was there for the entire Cretaceous period.

There are lots of fossil dinosaurs from the Cretaceous period. A major fossil formation is the Dakota which is one of the layers in the Grand Staircase diagram that has been posted a few times here. The Wikipedia article on this formation starts out saying it is found east of the Inland Seaway which would suggest there wasn't the problem I've been describing of there being no land area for the dinosaurs to live on because of the sea transgressions.

But the Dakota does not exist merely east of the seaway, it is also found in Utah (the Grand Staircase) and Colorado, which are certainly located in the area that was covered by the seaway. It is also found in Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, most of which are at least partly in the same area that was covered by the seaway.(bold added)


Faith, how could shorelines fluctuate if there was no landscape that included shorelines?

What you are leaving out of the Wiki article is that the Dakota is a basal sand to the Cretaceous transgression. It consists of what we call a transgressive sandstone, deposited along beaches, where streams dropped their sediment load as they reached base level at the sea. With rising sea level the sand deposits migrated eastward across the continent toward its source in the mid-continent area. This is Walther's Law in action.

It consists of sandy, shallow-marine deposits with intermittent mud flat sediments, and occasional stream deposits.[3][4]

This deposition marked a reversal from millions of years of erosion. This reversal was due to rising of the mouth of the rivers, called a rise in base level, as the Cretaceous Seaway formed. This rise lowers the gradient of the rivers causing them to deposit sediment because their velocity can no longer sustain high volumes of sediment.[6](bold added)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Formation)

So how do streams and shorelines and mudflats, along with the erosion of a source region, support your contention that there are no landscapes within the geological record?

I suggest that this does show the contradiction I was talking about earlier, between the claim on the one hand that the dinosaur fossils in this formation lived on the spot where they were eventually buried, but on the other hand, for that entire time period most of that land that became the Dakota formation was under water, so they could not have lived there.

Actually, you say that the seaway was there, not the Dakota Sandstone. There is a difference. For most of the existence of the seaway, it was depositing mudstone and shale along with other formations, as this cross-section shows:

The Dakota is shown as a relatively minor formation (in thickness, at least) at the base of the seaway sediments.

Certainly the Mancos Shale and the Niobrara Limestone have no dinosaur fossils. Those are the deeper marine sediments, while the Dakota Sandstone was essentially a beach deposit.

We know they died there because their fossils are in the strata of the formation found in those various states located in the area of the inland seaway.

Actually, the dinosaur fossils are found on the margins of the seaway. Fossils in the Mancos look more like this:

In other words, true marine fossils...

Seems to me this comes down to evidence that the dinosaurs did not live in that time period; they only died in that time period, and died by drowning.

Actually, they did live on the land masses surrounding the seaway.

And, by the way, if you believe there was a seaway at that time, doesn't that mean that there was a landscape? I mean, you mentioned the 'mountains of Nevada'. Please explain.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 1:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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