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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Jesus' self-understanding is irrelevant. A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless.
If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding.
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Taq Member Posts: 10081 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Once again though it all comes back to the resurrection. If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding. If the resurrection is not true then the whole point is moot anyway. As I said in my other reply if Jesus wasn't resurrected then He would simply have been another failed messiah and His followers would simply have disappeared back to their fishing etc.
That doesn't make much sense. The Messiah prophecies call for the Messiah to defeat the enemies of Israel. Whether some dude resurrects from the dead or not, the Messiah still has to conquer those enemies. Using the Donald Trump analogy from another post, if you prophesize that Donald Trump will win the general election you can't come back and claim the prophecy is fulfilled because Donald Trump wore a red tie during his concession speech.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Here was a Canaanite philosopher from c.234-305 A.D.
Porphyry - Wikipedia(philosopher) He said the same thing:
quote: He argued that Daniel was written in the mid 2nd century BCE not the 6th. I wonder if this individual being from Tyre influenced his interest in the subject (the failed prophecy of Tyre comes to mind).
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Turning fish into a much larger amount of fish "left over" after the meal was done could very well be seen an making up entirely new and totally different fish. This is lab-grown and "3-D printed" fish to an entirely new level. I gave you other examples to deal with that suggest something other than vegetarianism. I note that you did not deal with those in order to maintain this fake fish rule. Did Jesus also make fake bread when he fed the multitude? What would this signify? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
foreveryoung writes: They are wrong. Jesus did take away the sins of the world.... Not all men are saved however. They have to reconcile with God. All they have to do is accept with Jesus did on their behalf. If they refuse, God's taking away all sins of the world does no good. Classic example of apologetics at its finest, word salad and carny con games. Jesus took away the sins of the world but not the world, just those who kiss Hank's ass. It the little games like what is in your post that show so much of Christianity is just another con, another way to fleece the willfully ignorant gullible rubes. I happen to believe that is why there will be so many more atheists and Satanists and Buddhists and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and agnostics and Taoists and followers of Coyote and Confucius and Mencius in heaven than Christians.My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Taq writes: One could argue that the very thing that makes an enemy an enemy is the bad spirit within them. Some argue that we humans have the means and responsibility to do what is right. Others argue that the very thing that causes wars is intrinsic evil...greed...idolatry....lust....pride....etc. The Messiah prophecies call for the Messiah to defeat the enemies of Israel. Whether some dude resurrects from the dead or not, the Messiah still has to conquer those enemies. By resurrecting from the dead, the Messiah conquered the enemy. It is now up to us to give Him the territory He conquered.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: It must feel nice to be fully responsible. It means you get to have pride and credit yourself for proper behavior.
Jesus took away the sins of the world but not the world, just those who kiss Hank's ass. Classic example of apologetics at its finest, word salad and carny con games. And how is your belief any different? Apart from the fact that you are skilled at avoiding word salad. In addition, you have never trusted Christianity that is not your own brand. To me, this shows that you dont trust God. Reason? You dont believe that Christ can live in others and you prefer to feed the poor, etc yourself anyway.
I happen to believe that is why there will be so many more atheists and Satanists and Buddhists and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and agnostics and Taoists and followers of Coyote and Confucius and Mencius in heaven than Christians. If so, it appears God cares nothing about our behavior. Am I misrepresenting you again? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: It must feel nice to be fully responsible. It means you get to have pride and credit yourself for proper behavior. Too funny. No Phat, it means you and only you are responsible for your failures. There is no credit involved.
Phat writes: And how is your belief any different? Apart from the fact that you are skilled at avoiding word salad. In addition, you have never trusted Christianity that is not your own brand. To me, this shows that you dont trust God. Reason? You dont believe that Christ can live in others and you prefer to feed the poor, etc yourself anyway. What about that says I don't trust God? Or did you mean that I don't expect God to have to do what I should and can do? Who else can feed the poor? It is only us Phat, we are our brothers keepers? We are charged to do. Folk can pray that the hungry get fed, the sick get healed, the naked get clothed, the suffering get comforted, ignorant get educated, the weak get protected, the homeless get sheltered or they can feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, educate the ignorant, clothe the naked. One may make the person praying feel better, the other helps the recipient.
Phat writes: If so, it appears God cares nothing about our behavior. Am I misrepresenting you again? I cannot imagine how you can possibly get that out of what you quoted. Nowhere in that quote will you find anything about behavior; rather the quote is about professions and beliefs. I believe God will care far more about our behavior than why we behave as we do, what we claim to believe, what we profess. My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Here is the complete text from your post # 218.
quote: The texts indicate that there was more fish left over after the meal was over than there was fish before the magical miracle created lots of (additional) fish. They ate the fish, but was it from a killed animal or "3-d printed" "lab-grown type meat" (with no killing)? The nets could have been a miracle (a fundamentalist should think so) involving artificial fish (with no brains or thoughts and perhaps some strange physical matter). As for the life of the disciples before they met Jesus, surely they performed animal sacrifices and probably ate meat before they met Jesus. Matthew was a vegetarian according to Clement of Alexandria (born c. 150 A.D. and wrote close to 200 A.D.)
quote: Here is Clement of Alexandria on wikipedia. Clement of Alexandria - Wikipedia
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Here is a super popular evangelical dictionary text.
quote: It is b.s. The Canaanites did not. Put "phoenicians ate pork" into google and see the evidence. They did not in B.C. times and did not in A.D. times.Porphyry in 245 A.D. talked about that. Archaeology shows that they did not. The Hyksos didn't eat pork and it is theorized that the Egyptians did not because of them. more google search terms: hyksos ate porkphoenicians pork herodotus All sorts of information. This lie that Canaanites ate pork has been around for ages, but it isn't true. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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The clean/unclean system divided animals, people, and land into three categories to teach separation from the Gentiles This relates to vegetarianism in what way? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
As for the life of the disciples before they met Jesus, surely they performed animal sacrifices and probably ate meat before they met Jesus. Matthew was a vegetarian according to Clement of Alexandria (born c. 150 A.D. and wrote close to 200 A.D.) Sigh. And what do you make of Jesus performing a miracle to help them catch living fish? Or can we finally admit that this last feat, performed after those folks met Jesus stomps a mud hole in your vegetarian theory. How about a more direct indication of Jesus eating fish. Luke 24:42-43
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Put "phoenicians ate pork" into google and see the evidence. They did not in B.C. times and did not in A.D. times. But you cant let google do your homework. You need to understand and provide an argument totally in your own words.Porphyry in 245 A.D. talked about that. Archaeology shows that they did not. The Hyksos didn't eat pork and it is theorized that the Egyptians did not because of them. more google search terms: hyksos ate porkphoenicians pork herodotus All sorts of information. This lie that Canaanites ate pork has been around for ages, but it isn't true. What you are doing is trying to support a conclusion with google.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Here one of trillions of pieces of evidence.
Here is an expert on archaeological sites. This is a man respected on all sides of the early Israel debate. Second to none in his field.
quote: quote: Religious restrictions on the consumption of pork - Wikipedia If you follow my google links, then you will find ancient quotes about the Phoenicians and Syrians. Plus books that reference the issue Eat Not this Flesh: Food Avoidances from Prehistory to the Present - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books There is just endlessly repeated lies that never ever end. JPS Torah Commentary: Numbers, ed. Nahum Sarna (Philadelphia, 1990), talks about the pork laws and how they are meant to be followed everywhere, and not just in a cultic context. I will try to get the quote (I have the book on software, but can't use it presently). I found mp3 tracks of Vernon McGhee. See Leviticus 11 track. It is "secular" not cultic There are moral or ethical issues. Not cultic, ceremonial, or ritual. Index of /tracks/03_Leviticus
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
Or... the little boy donating his lunch prompted other people to share their lunches. There's no need to bring up any nonsense about vegetarianism.
They ate the fish, but was it from a killed animal or "3-d printed" "lab-grown type meat" (with no killing)?
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