|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,768 Year: 4,025/9,624 Month: 896/974 Week: 223/286 Day: 30/109 Hour: 3/3 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
If you want to discuss vegetarianism, start a thread. Frankly, I don't think we need to go past Genesis 4 but feel free to knock yourself out - in the appropriate thread.
I think the bulk of the evidence goes against your sentence.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2418 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: How to respond to this?
quote: Genesis 9 is when there was the allowance for food btw. And the animal sacrifices were first mentioned in chapter 12 and the Abrahamic Covenant which was based on nationalism and racial distinctions which were then delineated in Genesis 17 with circumcision as the feature. See Acts 10-15 for the ending of such. It is related to the topic btw. Sorry you don't see that. Now, to get a little off topic. I found out about Al-Ma'arra while searching the web btw.
quote: Interesting as he comments on a ton of issues. (I changed the format of the book quote, but kept text the same) Error 404 - Not Found But this part (not the rest) is off topic. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
I respod by repeating: Take it to an appropriate thread.
How to respond to this?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2418 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Sacrifices are an issue.
quote: Matthew 2:23 says,"And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene." There was a 1st century Gospel of Matthew by a group of this name. It seems to be the same one used by the Ebionites. They were vegetarians. They considered the end of sacrifices to men the end of killing animals for any reason.
quote: James was a vegetarian ALREADY IN 62 A.D.according to all the evidence, and the Ebionites said that the end of sacrifices were the end of the killing. They were already vegetarians because James died 62 A.D. according to Josephus. Then the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It is on topic. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LK writes: The Temple, Passover, and sacrifices aren't important then? If you look very closely you will perhaps notice that Temple, Passover, and sacrifices as well as vegetarianism all all different words and none of them related to the topic. Utter nonsense tossed to see what sticks is irrelevant.My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2418 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
This issue is important.
We need evidence that this group existed in the first century so we can see how old the traditions are (at the latest).James Tabor says that the Nazareans are the same thing as the Ebionites. Bart Ehrman considers the 2 groups related but not quite the same.
quote: There is a divided opinion as to whether the Gospel of the Ebionites is from a different group. There is very strong evidence that this group existed in the first century because there was an Elkesaite offshoot which existed in the 3rd year of a Roman Emperor that ruled from 98 to 117 A.D.
quote: The Elkesaite group existed in Mesopotamia (Mani was born in 216 A.D. in Mesopotamia and his parents were members of this group). All these groups (Ebionites, Narareans, Elkesaites , Manicheans) were vegetarian as were Matthew and James according to 2nd century sources. The critics who question that Elkesaites existed in exactly 100 A.D. have to nit-pick and dispute if the religion started in Palestine as the tradition claimed. They try to place the start more toward the end of Trajan's reign (i.e. about 116 or 117 A.D.) as opposed to the 3rd year. There is no reason to doubt the tradition. Elkesai would have picked an even earlier date than 100 A.D. if he was trying to make himself seem more venerable and making dates up. There isn't much room for the critics to move dates. The Elkesaite evidence locks in the fact that the Ebionites existed in the first century. Their views mirrored James' views. Their views matched the early descriptions of James being vegetarian. The followers of James (the Jerusalem church) fled to Pella in trans-Jordan during the troubles (with Romans, but James was killed by the Jews as they threw him from the Temple Mount in 62 A.D. according to Josephus) in the 60s. Elkesai had his "revelation" in 100 A.D. and started his new religion. It all fits with all the early traditions. Preserved by hostile Catholics and Greek Orthodox mainly. Very important when it comes to learning where Jesus was coming from in his views on there RELEVANT issues.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
You're looking at extra-Biblical evidence. This is the Bible Study forum. James was a vegetarian ALREADY IN 62 A.D.according to all the evidence.... Whatever you might have to say about vegetarianism, you're only hurting your own case by dragging it into a topic where it doesn't belong.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2418 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The Temple was a messianic issue. (Jesus said he was the Temple and Messiah) With the Temple comes the Passover. (Jesus said he was the Passover and Temple) With the Passover comes sacrifices. (Jesus said he was the Passover sacrifice) The vegetarian issues comes in because it is a mark of those closest to him and his 1st century followers (like James who he appointed leader of the church). Early first century that is.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
That doesn't mean that every subject you can vaguely connect with the Temple is a messianic issue. I'll be happy to discuss vegetarianism with you IN THE APPROPRIATE THREAD. In this thread, either DROP IT or go bother somebody else.
The Temple was a messianic issue.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Preferably the latter.
The issue really comes down to the fact that Christianity became a different religion than Judaism with different dogma, different customs, different practices and marketed to a different audience. Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish Messianic Prophecies because while Jesus was a Jew his followers created a new religion and became not Jews.My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2418 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The issue of sacrifices is complicated by the fact that the Essenes seem to have not disliked sacrifices. They seem to have performed sacrifices, so they can't be seen as the source for the anti-sacrificial views of Christians. Was it simply the Temple destruction? Paul already was against sacrifices and Jesus might have very well predicted the Temple destruction. He already considered himself the Passover sacrifice. Los Angeles Review of Books JSTOR: Access Check (only first page can be read but it is instructive when read with above link) Google My issue is to try to figure out exactly what Jesus taught (so we can trace the source of his teachings if there indeed were any). One very important clue might be to find out what James taught. Matthew (more the person, but the later Gospel bearing his name is an important issue) is important because of the prominent place he holds among Jewish Christians. The 1969 discovery (1975-82 publishing) of the COLOGNE MANI CODEX has become of monumentally important to me because of what it showed about the Elkesaites. Thank God the Encyclopedia Iranica has been offered for free online. How ignorant we would be without its precious modern scholarship. COLOGNE MANI CODEX — Encyclopaedia IranicaIt had a hyper-link to a separate article on Elchesai ALCHASAI — Encyclopaedia Iranica This was fundamentally important as it combined with existing sources on the Elkesaites to inform us a fair ways on them.The Kitāb al-Fihrist, "an Index of the books of all nations", was a 10th century work which talked about the vegetarianism of the Elchesai sect. The 4th century Epiphanius talked about how he taught that Jesus had multiple incarnations (important if one attempts to figure out the thought being responded to in first chapters of the polemical Gospel of John and the epistle of the Hebrews) and they were vegetarians. There were other sources. Forbidden Here is an 1880 work on the Elkesaites (which should have received explosive attention because of the Manichean Codex discovered).
quote:A recent article. quote: The book of Elchesai was produced 100 A.D. and that actually predates gnosticism which started to begin 100-150 A.D. and became more fully formed around 150 A.D. These views existed at the same time at New Testament books were being written. It seems to be a specific group that started in Trans-Jordan in 100 A.D. The important Gospel of Thomas states that Jesus made James the leader of the church. James had followers in Jerusalem. Josephus records the death of James in 62 A.D. in Jerusalem.
quote: These followers of James lived in the same place as the Elkesaites. Clement of Alexandria says Matthew was a vegetarian. Hegesippus said James was a vegetarian. (1 Corinthians 8:10-13 and Romans 14:1-15:1 strongly indicate that Paul was a vegetarian) The Elkesaites must have gotten their views from somebody. The views of the Elkesaites (their book existed 100 A.D.) would make sense if one recognizes their place in the context of the Gospel of John (chapters 1-3) and Hebrews (chapters 5 to 10). The vegetarianism of the Ebionites is documented and they consider the Temple destruction to have been the end of killing animals (which were already prohibited before the Temple destruction) when sacrifices ceased. Did Jesus originate these new ideas and commands? Or was there a pre-Jewish school that he got the idea's from. It has to be asked. But we need to understand his views first. His logic. Where he was going. Then where did it com from.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sheesh.
More nonsense and irrelevancy.My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2418 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: What do you think of Jeremiah 7:22
quote:כִּ֠י לֹֽא־דִבַּ֤רְתִּי אֶת־אֲבֹֽותֵיכֶם֙ וְלֹ֣א צִוִּיתִ֔ים בְּיֹ֛ום [הֹוצִיא כ] (הֹוצִיאִ֥י ק) אֹותָ֖ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם עַל־דִּבְרֵ֥י עֹולָ֖ה וָזָֽבַח׃ עוֹלָ֖ה whole/burnt offering וָזָֽבַח׃ sacrifice Then Exodus 12:27
quote: וַאֲמַרְתֶּ֡ם זֶֽבַח־פֶּ֨סַח ה֜וּא לַֽיהוָ֗ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר פָּ֠סַח עַל־בָּתֵּ֤י בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ בְּמִצְרַ֔יִם בְּנָגְפֹּ֥ו אֶת־מִצְרַ֖יִם וְאֶת־בָּתֵּ֣ינוּ הִצִּ֑יל וַיִּקֹּ֥ד הָעָ֖ם וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲוּֽוּ׃שמות 12:27 Exodus 12:27וַאֲמַרְתֶּ֡ם זֶֽבַח־פֶּ֨סַח Then you shall say the sacrifice of the passover זֶֽבַח־ the sacrifice פֶּ֨סַח the passover Jeremiah 7:22 has זָֽבַח sacrifice Maybe this influenced Jesus? An issue to consider. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Again...you won't find the truth in a search engine. You can use one once you yourself have the truth within you. Otherwise it is, as jar would say...word salad.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2418 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
The last 3 words of Jeremiah 7:22 are "words of (a) whole offering and (a) sacrifice. (my translation)
But the word sacrifice is there right beside the word "passover" in Exodus 12. I think Jesus saw Moses as not saying words that reflected history or Gods heart. See Matthew 19:8
quote: (see Deuteronomy 24) James was aware of scripture being changed. They knew about the contradictions between the Massorah and the Septuagint for one. Jesus said "mercy not sacrifice". He quoted Hosea. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024