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Author Topic:   The Whole Jesus Thing
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 286 (78533)
01-14-2004 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Taqless
01-14-2004 6:15 PM


Child Sacrifice?
This is a loaded question.
First to address the issue of Jesus dying as child sacrifice...
Matthew 26:39
"He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
He CHOSE his Father's will because he recognized it as the better way. Although he did not want to die, he saw the neccessity of it and chose to go through with it. He had a will, he was not led there without his consent. It was his decision.

"The life I preach I do not live...I follow at a distance crawling" - unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Taqless, posted 01-14-2004 6:15 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Taqless, posted 01-15-2004 1:26 AM Angeldust has not replied
 Message 35 by Prozacman, posted 01-16-2004 11:00 AM Angeldust has not replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5913 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 32 of 286 (78563)
01-15-2004 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Angeldust
01-14-2004 10:54 PM


Re: Child Sacrifice?
Hmmm, I'm not sure which part of your post was a reply to me, but here is some food for thought:
He CHOSE his Father's will because he recognized it as the better way. Although he did not want to die, he saw the neccessity of it and chose to go through with it. He had a will, he was not led there without his consent. It was his decision.
Aside from the fact that this particular incident was not actually witnessed (right?)and does not answer my question I would argue that any recipient of death for their belief has made this choice for similar reasons.
So, please explain why you think Jesus was a deity and not a human like you or I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Angeldust, posted 01-14-2004 10:54 PM Angeldust has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 286 (78566)
01-15-2004 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Abshalom
01-14-2004 2:54 PM


Re: Another Perspective
Abshalom,
So, who's to blame for this obvious evil? Are those pesty little birds actually incarnated demon spirits? Naw, they're just evolved descendants of dinosaurs of unearthly origins. Damned evolution!
I do find it interesting that, after decades of being a serious birdwatcher and ornithologist, I matured to studying the natural history of demons. That birds, long thought to represent naturally the "ways" of demons, have descended from dinosaurs, I find spiritually intriquing. Dinosaurs (dragons?) also have a symbolic connection to demons. Are models, you might say. And, once, the evil spirits were really in your face, so to speak. But now, they just flit around in the heavens. Damned evolution? Hey, they're demons. They adapt and try to overcome, like all free-will beings.
But don't miss the point. You can understand an idea you do not believe in, and as far as spiritual righteousness goes, must do so, to as great a degree as possible. Humility and grace.
Stephen

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 286 (78855)
01-16-2004 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Newborn
01-14-2004 2:08 PM


With all due respect, I used to advise people to read Josh McDowell's, "Evidence that demands a verdict", and that was years ago. All I can say is, "Been there, done that."

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 286 (78857)
01-16-2004 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Angeldust
01-14-2004 10:54 PM


Re: Child Sacrifice?
"...Not as I will, but as you will", is a lesson in submission & humility, and of course he didn't have to go to the cross, but that would have messed up the Father's whole plan of salvation for humankind, wouldn't it? Therefor he realy had no choice!

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 286 (78858)
01-16-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Asgara
01-14-2004 5:14 PM


WOW! A Venus figurine from the 'stone age'! Way Cool!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 286 (150292)
10-16-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Manning
12-06-2003 1:15 PM


The Whole Jesus Thing
Yaro writes:
How is Jesus dieing for us the 'ultimate gift'?
Was not Jesus God? So God killed himself so we could go to heaven?
How could God kill himself? Why does he need to appease himself with sacrifice, let alone his own sacrifice?
Heck, why does he need appeasing at all? Couldn't god just make everyone 'saved', why does he need to kill himself for it?
I saw a website once that had the quote:
God loves us so much that he sent himself to be killed to appease himself so he wouldn’t have to burn us all in hell. If we don't believe this, he will still burn us up in hell because he loves us so much.
Can anyone explain the mechanics, and/or logic about how salvation is supposed to work?
Manning writes:
I've got another question to pose that follows along these lines. If Jesus died to cleanse our sins, why does it matter if we believe in him? It either happened or it didn't, why should it matter if you believe he took our sins or not?
Here are my answers to these questions, guys.
Consider a computer program. When it becomes faulty, a patch is required to fix it.
Manning asks why is it essential to believe? Yaro asks why Jesus is the ultimate gift.
It is complex, but consider Jesus as the patch sent to fix a faulty human program.
The reason that we are commanded to love God fully is because this is the way that the patch adheres to our own faulty programming in which we choose whom or what to love.
For some reason, God needs to be the focus of our love. I am still asking Him to show me whybut I love Him anyway! Call it blind faith. Love is blind.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 1:51 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 40 by Legend, posted 10-16-2004 2:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 38 of 286 (150298)
10-16-2004 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Yaro
12-08-2003 11:42 AM


Re: RE: Atonement
Yaro writes:
I have allways been curious as to why god desired sacrifice at all. At the end of the flood it states that the smell of burning meat was pleasing to him (god). Anyone out there know what the whole idea surrounding this is, so we can then explore the jesus myth further?
Historically, meat sacrifice served a number of practical and social purposes. Most societies ate most of the sacrificial meat, leaving only a small part for the god(s). As meat was not easily obtained at the time, slaughering and eating a farm-raised animal would require some special justification, such as 'the gods demand it'. Also, the sacrifice usually involved the whole community, thus helping to reinforce social bonds, enhance the status of the family that offered the sacrificial animal, etc.
It's not difficult to see how such practices, reflected in the Torah and the OT ,were used as a basis and justification for Christian theology.
Other than that , the proposition that the Christian God requires sacrifice so badly as to send Himself to be sacrificed, smacks, to me, of reverse theological engineering, making up principles on-the-fly to fit the contradictory recorded events.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Yaro, posted 12-08-2003 11:42 AM Yaro has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 39 of 286 (150300)
10-16-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
10-16-2004 12:42 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
Heck, why does he need appeasing at all? Couldn't god just make everyone 'saved', why does he need to kill himself for it?
Likewise - satan does quick fixes - not God. That is why satan offers a lot and gives a little in the long run. Think about it - everything that the world offers - is sin according to God, and so - we now know the nature of the world(people) - that it prefers satan, and quick fixes that don't work.
Example; satan offers Christ all the kingdoms of the world - and therefore offers worldly gifts - yet did Christ come seeking riches and easy times - via the devil's way - Or is God long suffering and gracious, willing to die?
Now MANY are saved, rather than none with satan. And so God himself it seems - CHOSE to suffer!!!!!???? And Yaro now complains - and so did Peter - and God said "get thee hence satan".
And now you make out that it's God's will that you burn. Again - worldly talk ad strawmans. God's position is that you be saved from the evil of "YOUR DOINGS">
And so - God says woe unto them that have evil for good. Would you have it that Christ did an evil? This is the teachings of man - and his limited brain which is filled with foolish teachings of satan! A prime and ripe soil of erring potentiality ad desperado debatability against God.
And so phatboy - God waited a year for our retorts, and our day of refuation came.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 10-16-2004 12:42 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Harrism, posted 10-16-2004 2:51 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 40 of 286 (150305)
10-16-2004 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
10-16-2004 12:42 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
Phatboy writes:
It is complex, but consider Jesus as the patch sent to fix a faulty human program.
Isn't the fact that the vast majority of people on this planet don't believe in Jesus, proof that that the patch didn't work ?
What does that say about the patch supplier ?
I suppose I could understand it from Microsoft, but..God ....?!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 10-16-2004 12:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
Harrism
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 286 (150306)
10-16-2004 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by mike the wiz
10-16-2004 1:51 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
quote:
God's position is that you be saved from the evil of "YOUR DOINGS"
I'm gonna throw a spanner in the works here, What makes you think that what you've done is wrong? Don't carnivors based in remote islands in the world (the point hasn't anything to do with which tribe and so-forth) have the same chance of getting into heaven as we do. Despite they're breaking one of our commandments?
What I mean to say is, they believe with their entire hearts that what they are doing is right, they haven't been influcenced by our God, so is that their fault, ours or Gods? So could they still be given the same chance as us to entering heaven, since what they are doing is as right to them as killing is wrong to us.
They may have not had their sins removed from the death of Jesus, but when did they ever commit a sin within their citizity?
Just a thought really.

If you cant prove just one side, then why not try proving both?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 1:51 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 3:16 PM Harrism has replied
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 10-16-2004 8:34 PM Harrism has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 42 of 286 (150311)
10-16-2004 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Harrism
10-16-2004 2:51 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
They may have not had their sins removed from the death of Jesus, but when did they ever commit a sin within their citizity?
But the animals have no sense to know right or wrong - they are not like humans. They kill to survive - they don't know what right and wrong is. The commandment "Do no murder" is aimed at humans, unless you think you can get a lion to read and write.
What makes you think that what you've done is wrong?
Even serial killers no right and wrong, and that they've done wrong. Are you saying they've done right?
Well then - these unbelieving morals seem dangerous to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Harrism, posted 10-16-2004 2:51 PM Harrism has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by CK, posted 10-16-2004 3:34 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 44 by Harrism, posted 10-16-2004 3:49 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 43 of 286 (150312)
10-16-2004 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by mike the wiz
10-16-2004 3:16 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
quote:
The commandment "Do no murder" is aimed at humans, unless you think you can get a lion to read and write.
But if I managed to train a monkey to read? would it then gain a monkey-soul ? because surely you need a soul to sin?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 3:16 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Harrism
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 286 (150313)
10-16-2004 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by mike the wiz
10-16-2004 3:16 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
I think you might want to rethink what you just said, and read mine a little more, but I can see your point.
quote:
They kill to survive - they don't know what right and wrong is ... lion to read and write.
Animals know the difference between right and wrong, but it's different kind. They know if they eat this, or go near this creature they'll die. If they do something wrong they die, simple and striaght forward as that.
However my point wasn't made towards animals, but humans, hence why I gave the tribe example. Let me give you another example you might get to grips with, Al-Queda. Simple and direct to the point; they believe they are dieing for their God, and to kill others will lead them into heaven.
What makes them different from us, we're both human, we both feel the same, the only difference is our brain patterns. But what makes us go to heaven and not them? They believe what they are doing is absolutely right, (forget brain-washing, that wouldn't apply here) just like we believe what we are doing is correct to us.
quote:
Even serial killers no right and wrong, and that they've done wrong. Are you saying they've done right?
Some serial killers can't come to terms with what they've done is wrong, and never will do. I'm not saying what they've done is right, but instead what they've done is right to them, and if God was to judge on your motives and not the concequences then they have equal chance of entering eternal paradise as we do.
What I'm trying to say is, what's the difference between you, and a AI-Queda member? Both of you believe what you are doing is absolutely right, regardless of the actions you are both preforming. To him you could be preforming sin everyday, but to you, you're living in accordance with God's wishes.
Opinion, it's why we're here and have so many conflicts with the world.

If you cant prove just one side, then why not try proving both?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 3:16 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2004 4:23 PM Harrism has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 45 of 286 (150319)
10-16-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Harrism
10-16-2004 3:49 PM


Re: The Whole Jesus Thing
Your posts are a bit off-topic, but I will go along with them for now, because your baba is fresh.
Al-Queda. Simple and direct to the point; they believe they are dieing for their God, and to kill others will lead them into heaven.
But you have to remember that I look at everything according to the bible. I mean - even you must see how they are wrong - and so their are many peaceful Muslims who condemn their terrorism. So - to me - it's like this; If they think murdering is right then they don't know right from wrong, but they do - they know what they do is wrong deep down, because peaceful Muslims haven't done these evils. You see, if they think they are right, or have confused their thinking - then I must conclude that their god is satan, because killing and terrorizing is againt what Christ teaches - and Christ is whom this topic is about. And so - to me, they are not proper Muslims - but rather - they have fitted their religious texts to meet their evil acts. And so they are evil - and wrong.
So, they might be under satanic influence if they are going to kill.
Either way - I agree that these acts are atrocious - and so, they are simply wrong, even you would surely agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Harrism, posted 10-16-2004 3:49 PM Harrism has replied

Replies to this message:
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