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Author | Topic: Faith vs Science | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I mentioned the issue of Romans 14:14 because I thought you were making fun of the clean/unclean concept. The question I was answering was for examples of faith leading to knowledge that was scientific.
It turns out that you actually have your own theories about the concept, and you accept it based on your theories (of sickness issues and safety of meat). Historians say there is no evidence that food safety was the concern of ancient peoples especially the Hebrews with regard to pork and its parasites. It is often repeated by many that the concern is parasites and such. Again, the historians say there is no evidence that this was the concern. Regardless, it is an example of what was asked for. Even if safety wasn't the driving factor behind pork being unclean, it is still a concept that is supported by science.
Yes, vegetarians were simply described as "weak" in Romans. The consceince part was in 1 Corinthians 8:12
quote: So that's not about being a vegetarian. Paul was responding to concerns of the people of the new church in Corinth, where they were wondering about eating the animals that the locals had sacrificed to their gods. Paul was explaining that since the sacrifices to other gods mean nothing to the one true God, then it doesn't really matter if you eat that meat. But, if you are upsetting people by doing it, then you shouldn't eat that meat as a means to avoid upsetting people. It didn't really have anything to do with eating meat, in and of itself.
Remember that I thought you were making fun of the "clean" issue. The better word is "pure" anyway. I posted Romans 14:14 just to clarify that the issue isn't even part of (the original and modern so-called)Christianity anyway. Sure, God doesn't really care about all those crazy convoluted jewish laws.
The early Jewish Christians tied his death (c. 30 A.D.)to the end of eating animals, and the Temple destruction (70 A.D.) to the end of animal sacrifice. How do you feel about vegetable sacrifice? Like when the plants from Palm Sunday are burnt to make the soot for Ash Wednesday?
quote: I was quoting what religions and their sacred texts say. I don't think they feel that a trained dog should eat the same food that a wild dog does. It's all about enlightenment I suppose.
quote: Lions can actually be quite nice. Tigers too. They actually can form friendships with animals they normally eat, and this happens in the wild. A wild Tiger formed a friendship with a young ram, but the friendship ended when it got tired of the ram playfully butting him endlessly. He threw the ram away (with his mouth), and human observers later decided to separate the 2. Wild lions can be friendly with humans too, even though they are hungry meat-eaters. But they can't digest carbohydrates (most can't anyway), so they seem to need to eat meat. About 14/17 house cats (85%) can digest carbohydrates, and can survive on a plant-based diet. But not all of them can.
quote: Even the right-wing anti-vegetarian Dr. Michael Savage recently had to admit that vegetarians had more bioavailability of L-CARNITINE than meat-eaters. I remember when he claimed that vegetarians couldn't get enough. I don't feel like you've answered my questions.
Meat eating was a latecomer and it isn't necessary What do you mean a latecomer? Apes have been eating meat long before humans evolved.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The fact that every time we look for evidence of an intelligence that is ultimately responsible for our existence we do not find any. Did it ever occur to you that this intelligence does not want us to find any evidence? Being unable to find evidence of an-intelligence-that-is-ultimately-responsible-for-the-fact-that-we-exist is itself evidence that an intelligence is not ultimately responsible for the fact that we exist.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Did it ever occur to you that this intelligence does not want us to find any evidence? "Bwahahaha, let's see who believes in me now! Oh, you don't? Off to the fire pits with you!" Please don't make God be Loki.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
quote: Romans 14 was about total abstinence from food. Here is what Jerome said. CHURCH FATHERS: Against Jovinianus, Book I (Jerome) see section 18 1:18
quote: Here is the early church father (from the 2nd century!) Clement of Alexandria.
quote: Read on and you will see that he gives a reason for the Jews not eating pork that is not based on health issues. Clement also said (though not here) that Matthew was a vegetarian. I already quoted it in another thread.
quote: Vegetarians ever complain about this? Has a Hindu complained? Did the early Jewish Christians ever complain? I don't know. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Romans 14 was about total abstinence from food. No, it isn't. It's about not judging other people, keep it between you and God. It's about "live and let live", don't get in other people's way. If someone wants to eat meat, that's cool. If they don't, that's cool too. However, if your actions are causing distress to others then you should stop doing them and instead work towards peace.
Read on... No. Bring the argument here in your own words.
...a reason for the Jews not eating pork that is not based on health issues. That literally doesn't matter to the point I made.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 878 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
Meat eating was a latecomer and it isn't necessary
What do you mean a latecomer? Apes have been eating meat long before humans evolved. Yea, don't you remember, even T-rex was a vegetarian. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
quote: Reptiles from 65 million years ago are so like humans (uh huh). Reminds me of Dr. Michael Savage trying to tell people that it SHOULD be illegal to eat dogs. Callers kept calling up and arguing that "half the world lives on this stuff" and often China was used as an example. Savage was nearly exasperated at all the b.s. logic. "No matter what I say, [the responce is] 'just like China' , 'just like China'. People would say but "most of the world eats dogs", and Savage would respond, "I KNOW they do, but I'm saying they are barbarians". Anyway. CatSci made a statement that might be false anyway. Here is hit one on google when I type "apes meat eaters" into engine.
quote: Maybe we better start by looking at Mammals? Maybe we better start by looking at the last 20 million years or so? Maybe we better look at our ancestors from that period too? Maybe we better see what our bodies get from certain foods (like how much L Carn)? T-Rex is so so new age. WWJD? Ask James and the Jewish Christians from the first century. Even Catholics like Jerome and Clement of Alexandria agree with me.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
I said, "Romans 14 was about total abstinence from food."
quote: Paul came down on a vegetarian conclusion. You are using his stated logic and teaching techniques as an excuse to disagree with his conclusion. You did the same thing with 1 Corinthians 8:10-13. Then when I was talking about Clement of Alexandria.
quote: It matters because the "health issue" for not eating pork is a modern invention. And you still have to deal with the fact that even the gentile European Christians (in the Roman Catholic orbit) disagree with you at times. There were still many Jewish Christians around who kept the knowledge of the strict 1st century vegetarian commands of Jesus, James, Paul, and the rest. The 1st century Jewish Christians (and the following centuries) were unanimous on meat being prohibited. It is clear when reading Paul as well. (though James and his followers were the most powerful reason for the unanimity on eating meat being strictly prohibited) (the reason for not eating meat was very very clear. The Temple destruction also meant the end of sacrifice in Jerusalem so NO MORE ANIMAL KILLING for sacrifice as well as the previous food ban) Amazing (and I do mean amazing) that even a 4th-5th century Roman Catholic like Jerome sees it. But he was a genuine scholar. That fact alone settles the issue.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Lamark, you are using human wisdom to try and explain scripture. This simply will not work. It leads to long posts that basically teach us nothing. Quit trying to convince yourself and others something which you dont even understand how to believe.
Drop that zoroastrianism stuff...its worthless. If you believe in your heart that Jesus was raised from the Dead and confess it with your mouth you will be saved. Its just that simple. As for any critics, I have seen people transformed by simply doing just that.| My evidence is based on the transformation in others which I saw.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
Your post seems unconnected to this discussion.
As far as my posts are concerned, anyway. Re read what I typed, and pay close attention to the posts you read (which you think were my posts?).
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: Did it ever occur to you that this intelligence does not want us to find any evidence? Then it's rather odd that he sent his only son to earth to deliver his WORD and be sacrificed to save us. Odd too that he may perform miracles and respond to prayer. Then there's the small difficulty in annihilating all life on earth with a global flood whilst saving a select few to provide witness evidence. Honestly Phat, do you not ever join the dots?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm sure Phat had in mind that God won't let us find a certain kind of evidence, the kind that does fine for science but not for things of the spirit. For spiritual things, however, He's provided evidence galore.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
quote: Look at the problem I have with about a half-dozen or so posters. I'm almost not allowed to talk about the vegetarian issues related to prophecy, the new covenant/testament, Jesus, and the Temple destruction. Never mind that all the Jewish Christians all saw them as very closely connected. Nevermind that the Roman Catholic scholar Jerome of the 5th century clearly saw it as connected. Nevermind Clement of Alexandria (essentially a Roman Catholic and a gentile for sure) saw the connection. I show that even the (almost pagan) Manicheans were strict vegetarians because of their connection to the Elkesaites (a 100/101 A.D. Jewish Christian sect that had features that connected them to the Jerusalem Jewish followers of James from 30-62 A.D. and then after that when they fled to Pella in TransJordan), and I get either blank stares or posts shouting at me because people can't connect dots. I'm never allowed to connect obvious dots.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm collapsing your last two replies:
From Message 82 CatSci made a statement that might be false anyway. Here is hit one on google when I type "apes meat eaters" into engine. quote: Maybe we better start by looking at Mammals? Ah, you're more zoomed out and I'm more zoomed in, I see what you meant by latecomers now. I was thinking more on the level of "within the genus Homo". Honest mistake, thanks. From Message 83 Paul came down on a vegetarian conclusion. I'm honestly not sure what that means.
You are using his stated logic and teaching techniques as an excuse to disagree with his conclusion. You did the same thing with 1 Corinthians 8:10-13. I don't know what it is that you think I'm doing, but you sound way off. But we're not really on this thread's topic anymore, so I'd rather not go further here, we should branch off to a different one.
It matters because the "health issue" for not eating pork is a modern invention. That's what doesn't matter. I don't care if you forbid it because a magic pig talked to you and told you not to; back then the belief that 'you should not be eating pork' was one that today we can support scientifically.
And you still have to deal with the fact that even the gentile European Christians (in the Roman Catholic orbit) disagree with you at times. There were still many Jewish Christians around who kept the knowledge of the strict 1st century vegetarian commands of Jesus, James, Paul, and the rest. The 1st century Jewish Christians (and the following centuries) were unanimous on meat being prohibited. It is clear when reading Paul as well. (though James and his followers were the most powerful reason for the unanimity on eating meat being strictly prohibited) (the reason for not eating meat was very very clear. The Temple destruction also meant the end of sacrifice in Jerusalem so NO MORE ANIMAL KILLING for sacrifice as well as the previous food ban) Amazing (and I do mean amazing) that even a 4th-5th century Roman Catholic like Jerome sees it. But he was a genuine scholar. That fact alone settles the issue. I'm willing to discuss with you why that issue is not settled, but I really don't think this is the thread's topic here. You really should start (or link me to) a thread about Vegetarianism and Religion, or something like that. I'll argue with you about it.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: I'm sure Phat had in mind that God won't let us find a certain kind of evidence, the kind that does fine for science but not for things of the spirit. For spiritual things, however, He's provided evidence galore. Nonsense, Jesus (born of a virgin) walked around raising the dead, feeding the masses with couple of loaves and fishes, turning water into wine, walking on water and rose from the dead. His dad parted water, burnt bushes without burning them, turned water into blood, created all our languages instantly, flooded the word, sent manna from heaven, made laws on tablets of stone etc etc etc. Every one of those things interfere with the natural world in ways intended to impress and convince. Utter crap of course. It's interesting that the more sceptical and rational our society becomes the less of these kind of 'miracles' happen. The magician, it seems, can't do close-up work. These days he only impresses the ignorant off-camera.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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