Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
608 online now:
AZPaul3, Dredge, dwise1, Parasomnium, Tanypteryx, vimesey, xongsmith (7 members, 601 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 893,991 Year: 5,103/6,534 Month: 523/794 Week: 14/135 Day: 14/19 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Describing what the Biblical Flood would be like.
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 91 of 242 (788657)
08-03-2016 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
08-03-2016 10:51 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
Faith writes:

This is false. The evidence for the Flood is everywhere, real-world evidence that is only contradicted by your paradigm, not by reality. If you weren't blinded by your bogus dates you could see that there is no other reasonable explanation for the Geo Column and its fossils than a worldwide Flood. It's a perfectly ridiculous scenario that opposes the Flood, not reality at all.

Yet neither you or any Creationist has ever been able to provide a model, method, mechanism, process, procedure or thingamabob for the claimed Biblical Flood to create any of the real world characteristics found in all areas and technologies over the last several hundred years.

Even in this thread you have been unable to explain the issues seen with the Olive Tree and vineyard and the fact that those two parts of the story totally disprove the idea that the Biblical Flood could have created the Geology seen in reality or the fossil evidence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:51 AM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 92 of 242 (788658)
08-03-2016 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
08-03-2016 10:51 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
I have a question Faith. How can you not know that what you say is a reversal of the truth ? You know perfectly well that you want the evidence ignored and suppressed. You even "pitied" William Smith for reporting his discovery of the order in the fossil record.

Obviously you know that the evidence does not support you.

In reality it is Flood geology that is ridiculous.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 11:33 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 242 (788659)
08-03-2016 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
08-03-2016 11:06 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
What I pitied him for was believing in the Old Earth, not for the order of the fossils.

And the rest of your post is the usual "reversal of the truth."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2016 11:06 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2016 11:38 AM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 94 of 242 (788660)
08-03-2016 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
08-03-2016 11:33 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
quote:

What I pitied him for was believing in the Old Earth, not for the order of the fossils.

Did he ? His beliefs on the age of the Earth don't seem to be discussed much, so I can't say. But I do know that in the context of the discussion he was specifically cited for discovering and reporting the order in the fossil record.

quote:

And the rest of your post is the usual "reversal of the truth."

Oh, please Faith. You know better than that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 11:33 AM Faith has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 08-03-2016 11:56 AM PaulK has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19607
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 95 of 242 (788661)
08-03-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
08-02-2016 1:53 PM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
Faith writes:

Why do you assume the "bottom?" The Flood was abating....


The flood wasn't abating the whole time. The waters prevailed for 150 days. Have creationists bothered to do an experiment to test whether an olive tree can survive under water for 150 days?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-02-2016 1:53 PM Faith has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 08-03-2016 12:06 PM ringo has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 96 of 242 (788663)
08-03-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by PaulK
08-03-2016 11:38 AM


On the William Smith exchange.
In Message 521 of the thread The Great Creationist Fossil Failure PaulK replied to an assertion from Faith:
PaulK writes:

Faith writes:


OE has been defeated over and over again; there's no actual order in the fossil record to consider.


The first is just false bluster. For the second, William Smithnand two centuries worth of geology after him say that you are dead wrong.

To which Faith replied in the next message:

Faith writes:

Poor William Smith; poor James Hutton; poor Charles Lyell. A legacy of Wrongness in spite of their obvious talents, but it's their wrongness that has misled generations. Very sad.

So it seems Faith was once again objecting to both the fact that the Earth is old and to the fact that there is ordering to the fossils but as usual without offering any support for her position.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2016 11:38 AM PaulK has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 97 of 242 (788664)
08-03-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
08-03-2016 11:46 AM


On life underwater
Ringo writes:

The flood wasn't abating the whole time. The waters prevailed for 150 days. Have creationists bothered to do an experiment to test whether an olive tree can survive under water for 150 days?

Again that depends on which version of the story you consult. In one version it rains for 40 days and nights and then the water recedes for another 40 days. In the other version the flood lasts for a calendar year.

To allow those who wish to claim the Biblical Flood happened it would be nice to let them use the shorter period and assume the olive tree in question is located where it will surface almost immediately after the rains stop and initial recession begins. They can just show an olive tree can withstand being underwater for 40 days. Give them a break and assume the olive tree is one of the last things covered and so is underwater for just a week.

AbE:

However, the question remains that the Olive Tree did not get knocked over or washed away by the Biblical Flood and in both instances, the soil needed to grow Olive Trees and to grow grapes was not washed away or contaminated which certainly contradicts a flood capable of washing away lithified material.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 08-03-2016 11:46 AM ringo has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-04-2016 10:50 AM jar has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 126 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 98 of 242 (788669)
08-03-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
08-03-2016 10:13 AM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
Provide a cross section of what? The pre-Flood world? You're joking? I have no idea what such a cross section would do for you. You got some very wrong idea about what I meant by a landscape, and I tried to correct your misimpression. I can't tell yet if you got the message. I said I was only talking about the Geo Timescale imaginary "landscapes" invented to illustrate what the clues in the rocks seem to suggest, but there was always A landscape, that would have been covered in sedimentary layers Now you want a cross section of that? Whatever for?

Every cross section should have a basal surface that the flood deposited sediments on (if the section goes deep enough).

You have now concluded that the mountains of Ararat pre-existed the flood and were not eroded away by the initial flooding.

The mountains of Ararat would therefore represent one such basal surface.

We would expect other such surfaces to have avoided erosion by the flood and for there to be such features captured in the geological record.

You have denied that such features exist and have insisted that all (now maybe most) tectonic events occurred AFTER all sediments were laid down.

If you aren't cantankerous you are doing a fine job of seeming to be, making irrelevant demands in a very dictatorial tone and so on.

You're projecting.

You are also making tyrannical demands about what I should have learned from what I read about olive trees, and defining "education" to suit yourself as well. What's going on with you?

Don't get mad at me because I called you on your BS.

What I described was not all that controversial. I read enough to answer the specific claim about the olive tree.

Olive trees surviving underwater for months is not controversial?

But what else should I expect from a "Christian" who is willing to let his own educated imagination trump what God's word says?

Well, it's a good thing that I am not subject to your judgement - that your opinion isn't what determines my authenticity.

Yes, NOW you can get really pushed out of shape.

I don't let emotion rule my actions, so I'm not likely to get "pushed out of shape" due to your mean remarks.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 10:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 1:32 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 126 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 99 of 242 (788671)
08-03-2016 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
07-31-2016 10:30 AM


Are there other things based on reality, physics, chemistry, geology and paleontology that should be seen?

The Biblical account describes a fairly advanced civilization in the time before the flood with cities and metal workers. I wonder why none of these building materials or metal objects show up in the geological record until modern times. Shouldn't we be finding quantities of these objects in lower levels of sediment?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 07-31-2016 10:30 AM jar has seen this message

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 242 (788672)
08-03-2016 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by herebedragons
08-03-2016 1:21 PM


Re: On some pre-flood environment
You have denied that such features exist and have insisted that all (now maybe most) tectonic events occurred AFTER all sediments were laid down.

WHAT????? You are making NO sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by herebedragons, posted 08-03-2016 1:21 PM herebedragons has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 101 of 242 (788675)
08-03-2016 2:39 PM


This olive tree was born and reared in the pre-Flood world with the vitality to withstand hardship.

There is of course no reason to continue a scientific debate when one party is free to make stuff up as needed, while the other side is honor bound to provide evidence and argument. Magic trees, infinite numbers of alleles for every possible trait distributed among a mere handful of humans, and water that can sort radioactive materials and fossils into an evolution appearing order. Humans that can reproduce into pyramid building populations in only a few generations, and not a single bit of evidence needed for any of it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 3:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 102 of 242 (788677)
08-03-2016 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
08-03-2016 2:39 PM


Jar is making up all his evidence, how the olive tree COULDN'T have survived, how there COULDN'T have been a vineyard. It's all some of the lore about how the plants grow, selectively chosen to discredit the Biblical account, just as I'm selecting different facts to counter his, that defend the Biblical account. It's nonsense that he's using scientific means and I'm not. Utter nonsense. It's ALL a big fat piece of guess work, only I have a witness account on my side and he has nothing but his own fallen mind.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2016 2:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 08-03-2016 3:42 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2016 4:27 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2016 6:09 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 103 of 242 (788683)
08-03-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
08-03-2016 3:07 PM


Please stop posting falsehoods and misrepresentation about what I post Faith
Faith writes:

Jar is making up all his evidence, how the olive tree COULDN'T have survived, how there COULDN'T have been a vineyard.

Once again Faith you are simply posting falsehoods and misrepresentation. I have consistently taken the position when discussing the Olive Tree and the Vineyard that both did exist and did survive.

It is their existence and survival that discredits your description of what the Biblical Flood would be like and do.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 3:07 PM Faith has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 104 of 242 (788686)
08-03-2016 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
07-31-2016 10:30 AM


Hi jar

jar the Flood Faith argues about is the one that was invented in the mind of a teenager that had been hit in the head with a rock and was in a coma for 3 weeks.

Almost everything I have seen that Faith has written concerning the flood is written in the books of Ellen G. White.

Why she or anyone else can say they believe in the Bible and also believe in the flood described by Mrs White is beyond my comprehension.

In a later message you mentioned the water in the atmosphere would be salty.

The rain that comes from the atmosphere today is not salty.
If I understand it properly the water is vaporized by the heat of the sun and rises into the atmosphere. When it turns to the form of water it is too heavy to stay in the atmosphere so it falls to the ground as rain. The salt content in the water would not vaporize and rise thus it would stay in the ocean.

There is enough water in the atmosphere to cover the earth with 1 inch of water. Not enough for the Biblical flood.

The springs (fountains) of the deep produce water that is clearer and cleaner than any bottled water you can buy. It comes from rivers that run under the surface of the earth just like any of the number of springs in Florida.

I would think the rising of the waters from the oceans would be like what is seen two time a day at the Bay of Fundy. The water rises and falls 48 feet every 12 hours. But what would happen if the tide did not go our and the water just kept rising? Forty days later the water would be 3,840 feet deep. Just a thought.

If you look at the Bay of Fundy you can't tell much difference in the looks of everything after the water rises 48 feet then falls 48 feet.

I thought I would address these things and when I read the thread further I may make further comments.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 07-31-2016 10:30 AM jar has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2016 6:21 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 9:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8547
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 105 of 242 (788687)
08-03-2016 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
08-03-2016 3:07 PM


Phat writes:

Jar is making up all his evidence, how the olive tree COULDN'T have survived

Do you not feel the need to explain how a living tree could survive being underwater for that period of time? We KNOW - not speculate, but know - that trees drown under water. They need gaseous oxygen to live and they die if only their roots are waterlogged for extended periods.

Some trees survive better in floods than others - is an olive tree one of them?

I don't know, but I suspect there's a clue in its environment and the notes for growing them. Trees that survive local, short term flooding - not buried under 15 cubits of water for long periods - tend to be those that live close to water, willows spring to mind. I wouldn't imagine that trees adapted to hot and dry climates - such as olives - would enjoy water logging. And their gardening notes tell us that they need free draining soils and shouldn't be planted any places were water may gather.

And that's before you add in the effect of the power of the water which you tell us stripped rock and sedements to miles deep then redeposited it all again. Is your olive tree going to survive that? Apart from the virtual certainty of being uprooted, if somehow it wasn't, it would have been in total darkness for months by all the sediment in the water.

Then we've got the small matter of brackish water - do olive trees like that?

The working hypothesis is that all trees were killed. You need to explain why this one wasn't. I'd be happy for you to claim a miracle - I don't see why not.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 3:07 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022