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Author Topic:   Describing what the Biblical Flood would be like.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 242 (788472)
08-01-2016 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
07-31-2016 10:11 PM


Re: Yet one more thing we can say
And what is the evidence that supports the water from the windows of heaven or the fountain of the deep would not be salty?

Ocean water is salty because water that flows into the ocean contains minerals leached from rocks by rivers and streams that flow into the ocean. If there were water above the earth that had never flowed across the landscape, why would we expect that water to be salty?

In any event, both sources of water are made up out of whole cloth. Is it really reasonable to inquire into whether or not imaginary sources of water might contain dissolved minerals?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 07-31-2016 10:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-01-2016 8:51 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 08-01-2016 9:21 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 242 (788501)
08-01-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
08-01-2016 8:51 AM


Re: and yet another thing we should see.
When we look at the waters found in the heavens we also find that it is not just water but has many of the fairly complex chemical signatures we associate with the building blocks of life. In fact the composition of heavenly waters is different enough to allow scientists to determine if water is from a cometary source I understand.

The analysis of water from comets looks at the isotopes of oxygen because the ratios of isotopes other than O-16 is different in the water. That has nothing to do with salts. And those chemicals that constitute the building blocks of life, namely carbon compounds are generally covalent molecules and not the minerals that constitute salts. Yeah, there might be minerals in comet water but the stuff you are discussing does not get address that issue.

Beyond that, the canopy of water that is described in Genesis is something different entirely. That water came from who knows where.

So if a claim is made that the source of the extra water needed for a Biblical flood story is true then I think it is reasonable to question the content and makeup of that miracle water based on the reality of similar water found today.

Actually, in the case of water from the windows of heavens, it probably is not reasonable to expect it to be just like ocean water, or to conform to the origin of the solar system as understood by science, because if the Bible is correct, all of that other stuff is irrelevant and wrong.

Waters from the fountains of the deep is another question entirely. You'll note that I don't ask about that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-01-2016 8:51 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 242 (788502)
08-01-2016 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
08-01-2016 9:37 AM


Re: Yet one more thing we can say
You don't get to win a debate about the Flood by simply declaring your prejudice that the Flood didn't happen.

He did a bit more than that. He alluded to, admittedly without citation, evidence that the flood did not occur; namely the continuity of human life and civilizations over the relevant period indicating no interruption by a global flood. Coyote has made that argument in varying levels of detail an endless number of times since you've been here.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 08-01-2016 9:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-01-2016 12:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 46 of 242 (788536)
08-01-2016 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
08-01-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Yet one more thing we can say
It amounts to no more than saying "my dates are right, and yours are wrong." It's not an argument, it's an assertion.

You are incorrect. You have no way to assign a date to any soil sediments, pre or post flood. Absolutely none. What you do instead is deny that the dating Coyote uses is correct regardless of how much evidence supports those dates. So it is an evidenced argument against your denial.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-01-2016 12:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 101 of 242 (788675)
08-03-2016 2:39 PM


This olive tree was born and reared in the pre-Flood world with the vitality to withstand hardship.

There is of course no reason to continue a scientific debate when one party is free to make stuff up as needed, while the other side is honor bound to provide evidence and argument. Magic trees, infinite numbers of alleles for every possible trait distributed among a mere handful of humans, and water that can sort radioactive materials and fossils into an evolution appearing order. Humans that can reproduce into pyramid building populations in only a few generations, and not a single bit of evidence needed for any of it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 3:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 106 of 242 (788691)
08-03-2016 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
08-03-2016 3:07 PM


It's ALL a big fat piece of guess work, only I have a witness account on my side and he has nothing but his own fallen mind.

Nonsense. You have no witness accounts for a super genome. You made that up. You have no witness accounts for the idea that there is missing landscape evidence. You made that up. You do have a Biblical testimony that an olive leaf is available, but as for how that happened you don't have any witness as to how that occurred. You made your explanation up.

In one post you tell us that there is no explanation for the sorting of fossils. In another you tell us you have a working model for the flood. One of those statements is obviously false. I think Jar has properly guessed that neither of those things is true. In one post you tell us that there is no way to obtain information regarding the unwitnessed past. Yet you devote an entire thread to telling us how you can use that same evidence to rule out a scientific explanation. Quite obviously one at least one, and almost certainly both of those statements are wrong. But not when you tell it.

Perhaps you've simply blundered into the wrong forum?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 3:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 08-03-2016 9:50 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-04-2016 12:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 242 (788694)
08-03-2016 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
08-03-2016 4:24 PM


I would think the rising of the waters from the oceans would be like what is seen two time a day at the Bay of Fundy. The water rises and falls 48 feet every 12 hours. But what would happen if the tide did not go our and the water just kept rising? Forty days later the water would be 3,840 feet deep. Just a thought.

Do you understand how tides work? Is this really a plausible thought?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2016 4:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2016 1:24 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 242 (788713)
08-04-2016 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
08-01-2016 9:21 AM


Re: Yet one more thing we can say
How can a person call himself a Christian who denies the plain words of scripture?

What's required for salvation, Faith? Haven't we discussed this point a dozen times? You don't have to be endorse YEC to be a Christian. Beyond that, this is a discussion where evidence based discussion is the order of the day.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 08-01-2016 9:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 08-04-2016 10:06 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 242 (788714)
08-04-2016 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ICANT
08-04-2016 1:24 AM


I think they are caused by the moon's gravitational effects on the water and the earth. At least that is what I was told.

The sun and the moon's gravitational effect on the oceans as a whole accompanied by the rotation of the earth.

So why would it not be plausible?

ICANT, what you said was this:

ICANT writes:

But what would happen if the tide did not go our and the water just kept rising?

It's not feasible for the tide to come in and not go back out. Further the extreme rise of the tides at the Bay of Fundy is caused by the region's topology. The fountains of the deep are like the tides in what way? How would the effect get expanded to the rest of the world, where the tides are of a substantially smaller scale. What is the point of your comparison with the Bay of Fundy.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2016 1:24 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2016 5:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 125 of 242 (788763)
08-04-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
08-04-2016 12:50 PM


Re: Just more straw man debunkery
Aside from the fact that I have no super genome at all, of course I've "made up" the attempts to explain how the few people and animals on the ark were able to populate the earth since then. Of COURSE I have no witness evidence for that. CAN YOU READ? I said most of this is necessarily guess work. I did NOT claim witness support for my guesses. CAN YOU READ?

You are missing the point. Your claim is that we are all guessing. That claim is wrong.

You require that the 8 people on the ark, 3 of whom were direct descendants of one and probably two of the others include enough genetic variety to account for all of the variation among humans currently observed without invoking mutation. In many cases, you require even more from the animals on the ark. Your guess requires far more than even being heterozygous at every loci can provide. That means you are using guess work against a conclusion backed by evidence.

You've similarly missed the point with the rest of the things I've raised by yelling about how accurately I have quoted you. The point is that your claims are dismissed as being completely unsupported by the evidence and are even contradictory to some other of your claims.

ABE:

Faith writes:

The point is you can never have the SCIENTIFIC CERTAINTY about the past that you have in the hard sciences.

Your claims are far more dismissive than that. Your claim is that the sciences like geology and paleontology are not sciences at all even where they rely directly on things like physics which are hard sciences. You claim that people doing geology are simply guessing like you do. But then you claim an ability to use that same science as proof that geologists are wrong. If so then there must be a degree of certainty available from the geological record. That is the contradiction I am pointing to.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-04-2016 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 08-04-2016 3:59 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 242 (788813)
08-05-2016 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
08-04-2016 3:59 PM


Re: Just more straw man debunkery
You're wrong, NN but I'm leaving it at that. I'll even say I'm sorry for becoming intemperate about it. But you're wrong.

I appreciate your politeness, but you are just asserting that I am wrong in response to an argument that you are wrong. If that's where you want to leave the record, that's fine with me.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 08-04-2016 3:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 242 (788814)
08-05-2016 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by ICANT
08-04-2016 5:31 PM


Yes Fundy is caused by it's location and topology.

Right. In particular, the effect of the tide over a large area is funneled into a small region multiplying the effect of the normal tide. If that is supposed to be an illustration of how the flood could work, how can you generate a world wide multiplying effect if the flood itself is supposed to be global? In short, what is the purpose of even referring to Fundy?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2016 5:31 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2016 3:15 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 242 (788871)
08-06-2016 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ICANT
08-06-2016 3:15 AM


As I said the Bible has the dry land mass of an undetermined size with an undetermined sea level elevation. We do not know what the highest elevation of any of the land mass was.

I asked you the relevance of your example regarding the Bay of Fundy because you appeared to use it to tell us that extreme rising of water levels in a short period were feasible. Here is what you said:

I would think the rising of the waters from the oceans would be like what is seen two time a day at the Bay of Fundy. The water rises and falls 48 feet every 12 hours. But what would happen if the tide did not go our and the water just kept rising? Forty days later the water would be 3,840 feet deep. Just a thought.

What portion of the above sentence is the least bit relevant to the flood as you describe it happening. What you did above is simply take the water level rise in a 12 hour period and multiply it by 80 to find a rise in 40 days. How is it relevant to do such math without implying a similar mechanism?

Rather than answer the question, you talk about other things having no relation to the Bay of Fundy at all.

Here is a similar argument once made by someone else at EvC,

The record for rainfall in one hour is 12 inches. So clearly we can get a total rainfall of 40 * 24 feet in 40 days, more than enough for a flood over the entire earth. Except that we know that this cannot work.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2016 3:15 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 2:11 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 242 (788993)
08-09-2016 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ICANT
08-06-2016 3:15 AM


NoNukes, you are missing my point.

The Bay of Fundy has been having these 45+ feet tides two times a day for a very long time. They haven't destroyed everything yet.

Where did you make such a point?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2016 3:15 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 08-10-2016 1:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 242 (789051)
08-10-2016 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by ICANT
08-10-2016 1:48 AM


If you look at the Bay of Fundy you can't tell much difference in the looks of everything after the water rises 48 feet then falls 48 feet.

Let's consider that argument.

1. What you observe now is what happens after every removable bit of soil has been eroded. Is there some evidence of what happened the first couple of times the tide came in? What would happen if I put up a tent city in the path of that 48 foot flood right now? Nothing?

2. If I noticed that not much changed after a bunch of 4 inch floods, would it be reasonable to assume that nothing much occurred after a single 4000 inch flood?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 08-10-2016 1:48 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2016 1:00 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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