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Author Topic:   Describing what the Biblical Flood would be like.
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 136 of 242 (788878)
08-06-2016 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ICANT
08-06-2016 3:15 AM


All we know is that the Bible says the land mass was one single land mass that was surrounded by water as it was in one place.

Pangea, which was the most recent example of all land being in one mass, broke up some 175 million years ago.

Are you suggesting that humans were in existence that long ago?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2016 3:15 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 2:55 AM Coyote has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 137 of 242 (788883)
08-06-2016 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ICANT
08-04-2016 5:31 PM


ICANT writes:

But according to the Bible there was one land mass at the time of the flood. Genesis 1:9


That isn't what Genesis 1:9 says. It says the waters were gathered together in one place, not the land. There could have been thousands of land masses - and not surprisingly, there are.

ICANT writes:

We do know there was enough water available to cover all the dry land with water, as it did in Genesis 1:2.


Genesis 1:2 doesn't say that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2016 5:31 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 3:09 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 138 of 242 (788908)
08-07-2016 9:56 AM


so returning to the points raised in the OP...
I'd like to try to return to the points raised in the Opening Post.

quote:
First, the two stories give us beginning criteria; rain for 40 days and 40 nights.

Water from the rainfall and from unspecified "fountains of the deep".

All the water recedes over about 12 months until fertile land is again exposed.

So based on those assertions from the stories and considering reality, physics and geography we can make a few basic conclusions.

The water that fell as rain had to come from water already in the seas so there would be a net rise of water level from rain of zero.

The water from the "fountain of the deep" would result in two effects; local land subsidence at the source of the fountains extending across the area above that aquifer; and local flooding around the fountains.

Water taken from aquifers would have a long recharge time and so the water from the "fountains of the deep" would remain as surface water for longer than the time between the supposed flood and today.

The land that subsided over the source aquifers would still be at the level of the initial subsidence and most likely show up today as lakes immediately over aquifers and that that did not exist over 4000-4500 years ago.

While loose materials would be washed down hill to be deposited at lower levels there would be almost no additional noticeable wear to any lithified rocks. The floods total duration is simply too short to cause any appreciable erosion to anything but loose materials and extremely soft surfaces.

What would get deposited during the recessional event would be a jumbled mass of mostly unsorted materials with the only identifiable sorting being most dense items on the bottom graded to least dense items at the top.

There should be a uniform and universal interruption of existing cultures, biology, environment and ecology that shows a radiating pattern of return beginning somewhere near where the Ark of the stories was supposed to have ended up.

What the above are based on?

We can look at the current real evidence found in the world today to make conclusions based on current processes as well as geology, physics, chemistry, hydraulics, current annual events like monsoons and major annual flooding and land subsidence as we pump waters out of aquifers and wear to lithified materials seen in falls and from rainfall.

Those processes; getting water into the air to fall as rain, measuring erosion to lithified surfaces as found all over the world, measuring subsidence, measuring aquifer refill data, looking at the result of floods and tsunamis and annual inundations give us baseline studies that can then be used to make predictions given the conditions laid out in the stories.


Are there any objections to those characteristics?

Are any of those indicators that should be seen if a Biblical flood happened found in the real world?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 139 of 242 (788989)
08-09-2016 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by NoNukes
08-06-2016 6:28 AM


Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes:

I asked you the relevance of your example regarding the Bay of Fundy because you appeared to use it to tell us that extreme rising of water levels in a short period were feasible. Here is what you said:

And I gave you the answer just above what you quoted.
The water in the big part of the bay is rising 1 1/2 inches per minute.
As it goes up the river it is multiplied about 10 times.

A single land mass with water all around it with water rising 1 1/2 inches per minute would do little damage to the landscape.

YEC"S have the water tearing up the surface of the dry land as well as the surface of the earth that is under the water.

So my reference was to show that the water could rise without doing much damage. It could also recede without doing much damage as takes place in the Bay of Fundy twice a day.

NoNukes writes:

What portion of the above sentence is the least bit relevant to the flood as you describe it happening. What you did above is simply take the water level rise in a 12 hour period and multiply it by 80 to find a rise in 40 days. How is it relevant to do such math without implying a similar mechanism?

The springs (fountains) of the deep would supply the rising water.

I covered your other musings by giving the total amount of water the atmosphere can hold before it falls on the earth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2016 6:28 AM NoNukes has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 140 of 242 (788990)
08-09-2016 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Coyote
08-06-2016 10:06 AM


Hi Coyote

Coyote writes:

Pangea, which was the most recent example of all land being in one mass, broke up some 175 million years ago.

Are you suggesting that humans were in existence that long ago?

At least you agree that the land was in one place at one time.

I would just disagree on your time frame.

But yes there was people on earth when the land mass was surrounded by water.

There are several very old clay maps from Babylon, and Sumaria which show a land mass with a large mote around it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Coyote, posted 08-06-2016 10:06 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Coyote, posted 08-09-2016 9:55 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 141 of 242 (788992)
08-09-2016 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
08-06-2016 1:03 PM


Hi ringo

ringo writes:

That isn't what Genesis 1:9 says. It says the waters were gathered together in one place, not the land. There could have been thousands of land masses - and not surprisingly, there are.

So you don't believe all the land mass was in one place in the past.

I thought according to scientific information it had been that way at least three times in the past.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 08-06-2016 1:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 08-09-2016 8:33 AM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 08-09-2016 11:41 AM ICANT has seen this message
 Message 225 by Boof, posted 09-01-2016 7:16 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 242 (788993)
08-09-2016 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ICANT
08-06-2016 3:15 AM


NoNukes, you are missing my point.

The Bay of Fundy has been having these 45+ feet tides two times a day for a very long time. They haven't destroyed everything yet.

Where did you make such a point?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2016 3:15 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 08-10-2016 1:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 143 of 242 (788998)
08-09-2016 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by ICANT
08-09-2016 3:09 AM


ICANT writes:

So you don't believe all the land mass was in one place in the past.

I thought according to scientific information it had been that way at least three times in the past.

God Bless,

Learn to read. What Ringo and others have told you is that Genesis 1:9 does not say that the land was in one place.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 3:09 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 144 of 242 (789002)
08-09-2016 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ICANT
08-09-2016 2:55 AM


Science vs. creation "science"
I would just disagree on your time frame.

And what scientific evidence would you use to dispute the time frame?

None, right?

Your disagreement with scientific dating is another example of creationists' use of "rubber band years" to find some date--any date--that might be home to the flood. The fact that humans weren't around 175 million years doesn't seem to be a problem. There was one land mass back then, so creationists stretch the evidence by about 174.8 million years in an effort to support their flood myth.

Good thing creationists aren't real scientists, though they sometimes pretend that they are. A real scientist who tried to stretch the dating like that would be laughed out of whatever profession he was in. With creationists, its just apologetics as usual. If that date doesn't fit, they'll just try some other date.

"Evidence? We don't need no steeenkin' evidence!"


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 2:55 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 08-10-2016 1:29 AM Coyote has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 145 of 242 (789006)
08-09-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by ICANT
08-09-2016 3:09 AM


ICANT writes:

So you don't believe all the land mass was in one place in the past.


The Bible doesn't say that it was. You'd have to twist what the Bible says to create any consilience with science.

The OP suggests several specific things that we should see if the flood really happened. The age of the earth isn't particularly relevant, nor is any other consilience with science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 08-09-2016 3:09 AM ICANT has seen this message

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 146 of 242 (789047)
08-10-2016 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Coyote
08-09-2016 9:55 AM


Re: Science vs. creation "science"
Hi Coyote

Coyote writes:

And what scientific evidence would you use to dispute the time frame?

The assumptions you have to use to begin with.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Coyote, posted 08-09-2016 9:55 AM Coyote has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by JonF, posted 08-10-2016 8:03 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 151 by Pressie, posted 08-10-2016 8:58 AM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 08-10-2016 11:45 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 147 of 242 (789048)
08-10-2016 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
08-09-2016 3:11 AM


Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes:

Where did you make such a point?

In Message 110 I said:

quote:
My point was that the water at the Bay of Fundy does not do a lot of damage even though it has a high tide every 12 hours and 25 minutes.

In Message 104 I said:

quote:
If you look at the Bay of Fundy you can't tell much difference in the looks of everything after the water rises 48 feet then falls 48 feet.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 08-09-2016 3:11 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by NoNukes, posted 08-10-2016 3:45 AM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 242 (789051)
08-10-2016 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by ICANT
08-10-2016 1:48 AM


If you look at the Bay of Fundy you can't tell much difference in the looks of everything after the water rises 48 feet then falls 48 feet.

Let's consider that argument.

1. What you observe now is what happens after every removable bit of soil has been eroded. Is there some evidence of what happened the first couple of times the tide came in? What would happen if I put up a tent city in the path of that 48 foot flood right now? Nothing?

2. If I noticed that not much changed after a bunch of 4 inch floods, would it be reasonable to assume that nothing much occurred after a single 4000 inch flood?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 08-10-2016 1:48 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2016 1:00 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 242 (789056)
08-10-2016 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
08-04-2016 10:06 AM


Re: Yet one more thing we can say
I didn't say you had to endorse YEC, I wondered how a Christian can simply do away with actual Biblical text.

It is YEC folks who claim that the Bible describes a canopy of water. The Bible actually does not say any such thing. So, yeah, in this case, it is only necessary to dismiss the YEC interpretations. In other situations, folks may question whether the text as written was intended to be interpreted in the literal way that YEC folk are prone to do.

Let's be careful about throwing around accusations that folks "do away with actual Biblical text" the way you do here, particular when the accusation is really intended to classify folks as non-Christian. Despite vigorous disagreements with you regarding what the Bible says, I would not call you a liar simply for expressing your opinion.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 08-04-2016 10:06 AM Faith has taken no action

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 150 of 242 (789062)
08-10-2016 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by ICANT
08-10-2016 1:29 AM


Re: Science vs. creation "science"
Coyote writes:
And what scientific evidence would you use to dispute the time frame?

The assumptions you have to use to begin with.

Way OT, but the only assumption underlying the time frame is that there is a real world we can investigate with our senses. The YEC three "assumptions" are BS. Modern methods do not assume known initial daughter product or closed system, and the constancy of radioactive decay rates is proven both experimentally and theoretically.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 08-10-2016 1:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2016 1:10 AM JonF has taken no action

  
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