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Author Topic:   The (King James 1611 version)Book of Tobit:A Zoroastrianism & New Testament link?
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2496
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1 of 5 (788515)
08-01-2016 1:10 PM


Before I start, I must make it clear that this book was indeed in the King James Bible. It has held a place among the sacred text for thousands of years.
The King James 1611 had the Book of Tobit in it.
Tobit 4:7-9 is read in the Anglican offertory.
My source is the evangelical ISBE
Tobit, Book of - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Now the issue is what the text says.Ill keep it short and simple.
The text has the angel Raphael telling Tobit this while they were in Persia.
quote:
Tobit 12:15
I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.
Revelation 1:4. 3:1,4:5, and 5:6 has the "seven spirits". There is no other parallel to Revelation in the entire Bible except the text of Tobit.
The Zoroastrian religion has the 7 Amesha Spentas. Good Spirits that are aspects of the supreme God Ahura Mazda. That is a major issue of interest in this thread.
Back to Raphael.
The notes in the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops website have this for verse 12 of chapter 12(I quoted verse 15).
quote:
* [12:12] Raphael is one of the seven Angels of the Presence, specially designated intercessors who present prayers to God. Angelology was developing in this period. The names of two other of these seven angels are given in the Bible: Gabriel (Dn 8:16; 9:21; Lk 1:19, 26) and Michael (Dn 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7). See 1 Enoch for the names of the rest.
Tobit, CHAPTER 12 | USCCB
A fundamentalist can question if Raphael should be considered for real if the Book of Tobit is to be rejected. I should keep that in mind. The seven spirits ARE taken to be actually existing,by fundamentalists, as the book of Revelation has them.But the precedent for the "7 spirits" still remains in the Book of Tobit.
The interesting thing is that the 7 Amesha Spentas of Zoroastrianism have demonic enemies.
quote:
Aeshma...is the Younger Avestan name of Zoroastrianism's demon of "wrath."
....
In the hierarchy of Zoroastrian demons (daevas) that mirrors a similar hierarchy of divinities, Aeshma is opposed to Asha Vahishta, the Amesha Spenta that is the hypostasis of "Truth." This opposition also reflects Aeshma's position as messenger of Angra Mainyu (Yasht 19.46), for in the hierarchy of divinities, Asha is the messenger of Spenta Mainyu, the instrument through which Ahura Mazda's realized ("created by His thought") creation.
....
Aeshma distracts from proper worship, distorting "the intention and meaning of sacrifice through brutality against cattle and violence in war and drunkenness."[3] (Yasna 10.8, Yasht 17.5)
Aeshma - Wikipedia
Spenta Mainyu is the Holy Spirit, the enemy of Aeshma who is an important spirit for Angra Mainyu (the Devil of Zoroastrianism).
But why do I bring up Aeshma?
Guess what?
This character is presented as an existing spirit in the King James Bible (1611)!
Here is the Catholic Bishops Bible text for chapter 3 with note.
quote:
7
On that very day, at Ecbatana in Media, it so happened that Raguel’s daughter Sarah also had to listen to reproaches from one of her father’s maids.
8
For she had been given in marriage to seven husbands, but the wicked demon Asmodeus* kept killing them off before they could have intercourse with her, as is prescribed for wives. The maid said to her: You are the one who kills your husbands! Look! You have already been given in marriage to seven husbands, but you do not bear the name of a single one of them.
....
* [3:8] Asmodeus: in Persian aeshma daeva, demon of wrath, adopted into Aramaic with the sense of the Destroyer. It will be subdued (8:3) by Raphael (v. 17), whose name means God has healed.
Tobit, CHAPTER 3 | USCCB
Here is the King James text.
TOBIT CHAPTER 1 KJV-
Bible, King James Version
The evangelical International Standard Bible Encyclopedia backs up the translation note of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
The eventual removal of the Book of Tobit, by Protestants, in the later versions of the King James Bible will enable one to dismiss the text as unhistorical and uninspired. But one still has to deal with the fact that it was a Persian setting when the "seven" spirits or angels were first mentioned. Nothing else is in the Old Testament.
I'm sure the issue will be ignored and explained away.
When does it end?
When does the ignorance end?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 08-09-2016 12:59 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 2 of 5 (788985)
08-09-2016 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
08-01-2016 1:10 PM


Not Inclined To Promote
Im not inclined to promote. This stuff simply isn't that interesting. Its not truth. You still use far too many links, and your reasoning is inconclusive.
Any other Mods are free to consider it, of course
Edited by AdminPhat, : added

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-01-2016 1:10 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-12-2016 11:42 AM AdminPhat has replied

LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2496
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 3 of 5 (789269)
08-12-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
08-09-2016 12:59 AM


quote "Its not truth".
Which part is untrue?
The part about a Persian deva being treated as an existing entity in Tobit?
I have made ready avaliable the newer, (even) more evangelical International Standard Bible Encyclopedia text - via a link (I think it was the newer Bromley edition of around 1981) - but I didn't quote from it. Should I?
I'll ask how one can respond to blanket assertions without refereeing the dispute with a scholarly authority.
Here is the older (less) evangelical edition of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia by James Orr.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Orr, James - Google Books
It says ASMODAEUS, quote, "is now generally held to be associated with Zoroastrianiam, with which the Jews became acquainted during the exile, and by which later Jewish views on the spirit-world were greatly influences. It is now held to be the equivalent of the Persian Aeshma-Deva"
The newer edition (that I linked to) is (often)so fundamentalist that it sounds creationist at times.
You call something a lie (you weren't specific as to what part however) but then attack the person's options (such as linking to authorities) which can help settle the issue.
That's not playing fair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 08-09-2016 12:59 AM AdminPhat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 08-12-2016 4:25 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 5 (789283)
08-12-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by LamarkNewAge
08-12-2016 11:42 AM


Re: quote "Its not truth".
I'll ask how one can respond to blanket assertions without refereeing the dispute with a scholarly authority.
All im saying is that I personally won't promote you. You can ask another administrator. As for scholarly authority, my belief is this:
quote:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
To me, there is one truth.Jesus Christ the living truth. Zoroastrianism, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormonism,are all incomplete truth because they rely on human wisdom, tradition, and scholarly authority which does NOT recognize Jesus as Lord. Again---ask another moderator to promote you. It is my contention that your long ramblings clog up this forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-12-2016 11:42 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2016 6:32 PM AdminPhat has seen this message but not replied

LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2496
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 5 of 5 (789806)
08-19-2016 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminPhat
08-12-2016 4:25 PM


Phat and his theological claims.
quote:
To me, there is one truth.Jesus Christ the living truth. Zoroastrianism, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormonism,are all incomplete truth because they rely on human wisdom, tradition, and scholarly authority which does NOT recognize Jesus as Lord
I was almost prepared to ignore the fact that you take a racist 1830 religion and compare it to Zoroastrianism. However I see you need to be corrected. There actually is a religion that is faster growing than Mormonism and it started about the same time? It is headquartered in Israel, but started in Iran (and Iraq I think). It is called Baha'i and it has about 10 million followers. They are based partly on Zoroastrianism and they allow a high view of Jesus. This religion believed (when it wasn't exactly popular in the west - witness Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the Baptists pro slavery views at the same time this peaceful Middle Eastern religion was forming) in universal equal rights such as opposition to slavery and national borders.
This religion is the 2nd largest in South Carolina with about 20,000 members (about 0.5% of the population).
Phat wants to ignore the various old Vedic religions as well as Zoroastrianism as well as the early Christians.
I predict that it could be getting harder (especially if trends continue).
And Zoroastrianism (the actual religion, not the offshoots that are still there) is making a comeback in Kurdish Iraq. There are lots of conversions and dozens of Temples being built. Some are even saying that it should be considered the original "Kurdish religion". Zoroastrian Temples are being built in the USA as well. One in New York got attention.
Your attempts to put Mormonism outside of the western Christian sphere will be noted. You attempts to place it on par with Zoroastrianism (which never had any hint of racism if one witnesses the relationship of the Medians and Persians with the native Elamites - infact Zoroaster and his followers seemed to be quite opposed to the caste system in India) might just fly in an ignorant world.
How much longer will the ignorance and darkness rule though?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 08-12-2016 4:25 PM AdminPhat has seen this message but not replied

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