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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 591 (789981)
08-23-2016 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
08-22-2016 11:17 PM


Re: What Is More Important?
My point of course is that Jesus prayed. You seem to minimize the importance of prayer. Some believe that prayer gets more done in certain situations than can be done through lifting that barge and toting that bale.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 11:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2016 4:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 227 of 591 (789982)
08-23-2016 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
08-23-2016 3:35 AM


Re: What Is More Important?
My point of course is that Jesus prayed. You seem to minimize the importance of prayer. Some believe that prayer gets more done in certain situations than can be done through lifting that barge and toting that bale.
Jesus prayed and you should too. If you read about the instances in which Jesus prayed, you will note that the primary change that occurred from prayer was on the person doing the praying. I cannot recall any instances where Jesus prayed rather than toting the bale. But I can remember instances where Jesus prayed before working miracles where he fed or healed folks.
Jesus works through people on earth. If a barge needs to be toted, Christians best get busy.
The link below is to someone's list of the times Jesus is described as praying:
How many times did Jesus pray in the Bible? - JesusAlive.cc

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 08-23-2016 3:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 228 of 591 (789994)
08-23-2016 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
08-23-2016 3:35 AM


Re: What Is More Important?
Phat writes:
My point of course is that Jesus prayed. You seem to minimize the importance of prayer. Some believe that prayer gets more done in certain situations than can be done through lifting that barge and toting that bale.
There are two kinds of prayers, those asking for guidance to allow you to do something and those that ask someone else to do it.
Jesus often prayed for the knowledge and power to do things, feed the hungry, make the beer run, raise the dead, heal the sick and it seems from the stories those prayers got answered.
There is one time that Jesus prayed asking God to do something; to lift this burden. That prayer did not get answered.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 08-23-2016 3:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Pressie, posted 08-23-2016 9:11 AM jar has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 229 of 591 (789996)
08-23-2016 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
08-23-2016 8:49 AM


Re: What Is More Important?
This doesn't make any sense. Isn't Jesus supposed to be God?
So Jesus prayed to Himself for knowledge and power to do things feed the hungry raise the dead heal the sick to do it Himself by Himself? It doesn't make any sense.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 08-23-2016 8:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 08-23-2016 9:18 AM Pressie has not replied
 Message 232 by jar, posted 08-23-2016 11:23 AM Pressie has not replied
 Message 234 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2016 12:32 PM Pressie has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 230 of 591 (789997)
08-23-2016 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Pressie
08-23-2016 9:11 AM


On how Christianity markets Jesus
Pressie writes:
This doesn't make any sense. Isn't Jesus supposed to be God?
So Jesus prayed to Himself for knowledge and power to do things feed the hungry raise the dead heal the sick to do it Himself by Himself? It doesn't make any sense.
I believe I can show how and why it does make sense but I'm uncertain about covering it here even though I think it is very much related to how Christianity is marketed.
Let's see if the moderators think it appropriate in this thread or take it back channel.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Pressie, posted 08-23-2016 9:11 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Admin, posted 08-23-2016 10:27 AM jar has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 231 of 591 (790000)
08-23-2016 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
08-23-2016 9:18 AM


Re: On how Christianity markets Jesus
Explaining how Jesus being God makes sense as part of how Christianity is marketed seems fine, as long as it doesn't take over the thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 08-23-2016 9:18 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 232 of 591 (790002)
08-23-2016 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Pressie
08-23-2016 9:11 AM


how to market Jesus
Pressie writes:
This doesn't make any sense. Isn't Jesus supposed to be God?
So Jesus prayed to Himself for knowledge and power to do things feed the hungry raise the dead heal the sick to do it Himself by Himself? It doesn't make any sense.
Okay, with Admin's tentative go ahead ...
You are right. If Christianity markets Jesus as being God or God/Man while alive on Earth then that does not make any sense just as Jesus death as some payment makes no sense and just makes the God character look stupid.
I have never been able to understand how marketing Jesus as God or God/man while he was on his mission could be considered as applying to humans in general or as any sacrifice. Humans can't really kill Gods and a God allowing humans to kill him is more a sham than sacrifice. A God rising from the dead says nothing about life after death for humans. Then there is the idea that God needed to kill God before God could forgive sins. That just really doesn't make any sense.
But there is another way Jesus could be marketed that may make better sense, show a true sacrifice, preserve the dogma and maybe even improve the product slightly and that revolves around the terms "incarnate" and "was made man".
Incarnate means to take on all of the attributes of something and "made man" is pretty self-explanatory. In the story Jesus is incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary and was made man.
Made man. Not man/god. not god wearing a man suit but GOD assuming all of the attributes of man, just man. It is GOD the creator of all that is seen and unseen becoming a baby, unable to see or speak, unable to walk or talk, unable to control his bowels or feed himself.
It is Jesus only a man living among men, having to learn as a man, work as a man, having all the fears and uncertainties and ignorance of man, feeling hunger and pain and hot and cold and anger and satisfaction and doubts and sorrow and joy and curiosity.
Now that is a real sacrifice far beyond getting nailed to a cross and put in the ground for a few hours.
If Christianity marketed Jesus' sacrifice as his life instead of his death then things look more reasonable. GOD performs miracles through Jesus just as GOD performed miracles through others in other stories. Jesus is then a lesson on what humans could be, what humans should do, what humans may face.
Jesus message then changes emphasis from a way to get outtahellfree towards a way to live, changes the focus from after death to during life, from "what's in it for me" towards "what am I supposed to do".
I believe that one of the big issues facing Christianity is that it seems to be choosing the easy marketing path instead of the harder marketing path which has resulted in so many folk seeing Christianity and Jesus message as totally irrelevant and just a waste of time and effort; as "it just doesn't make any sense". And I think their assessment is correct. Christianity as marketed today really doesn't make any sense and really is irrelevant.
One last point to bring dogma back into focus; this marketing plan says nothing about the state of Jesus before being born or after his ascension.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Pressie, posted 08-23-2016 9:11 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 8:11 AM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 233 of 591 (790003)
08-23-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Phat
08-22-2016 1:35 PM


Re: What Is More Important?
Phat writes:
I'm just saying not to limit a Christian to this task...its a waste of talent. Anybody can feed people.
And I keep asking you, what is beyond that limit? What are you doing that is so much more important than what Jesus told you to do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 234 of 591 (790011)
08-23-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Pressie
08-23-2016 9:11 AM


Re: What Is More Important?
This doesn't make any sense. Isn't Jesus supposed to be God?
The confusion about the divinity of Jesus is a confusion largely created by Trinitarianism. Whether or not Trinity doctrine is correct, the doctrine seems to create more confusion than it ever solves. In my opinion, verses like the one jar cited argue strongly against that doctrine.
Jesus said that God was his Father and that his Father had given him the keys. That seems simple enough to me.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Pressie, posted 08-23-2016 9:11 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by jar, posted 08-23-2016 1:32 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 235 of 591 (790017)
08-23-2016 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by NoNukes
08-23-2016 12:32 PM


Re: What Is More Important?
In addition the concept of the TRINITY evolved over time and only entered the dogma long after Jesus died. Even in the first version of the Nicene creed it was missing and the major value of the trinitarian position was always political rather than a matter of faith. I served to eliminate certain theological parties.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 591 (790033)
08-24-2016 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
03-25-2016 7:49 PM


Re: Christianity 101
jar writes:
Stephen was appointed by the Twelve as a Deacon and his job duties were to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort the sorrowful. His was a mission of doing. He too was a Jew and saw the Jesus movement as completely Jewish, not a new religion but rather a Reformation. In fact his defense at his trial (recounted in Acts 7) was that Jesus and his movement was not to destroy Judaism or create a new and separate religion but rather Reformation. And it was that message, "The problem is YOU not Jesus or the Mexicans or the Muslims or the liberals but YOU. " and it was that message that got him stoned.
It's not healthy to tell the voters that they are the problem.
The text clearly says that Stephen was a man filled with the Holy Spirit.
jar,referring to Saul/Paul writes:
But there was NOT much of a dramatic transformation.
As you have been shown, the story of Paul's experience did undergo dramatic transformation as it got revised and retold, but the only real change was one of allegiance; Paul switched sides.
You seem to dismiss this whole idea that a person can and does undergo a dramatic transformation. I have seen personal evidence to the contrary.
jar writes:
I don't think anyone doubts that Paul experienced something dramatic, but that is not evidence that anything really happened, only that Paul believed something happened.
So I am assuming that you believe much the same about any claim that dramatic transformations happen...even today. By dramatic transformations I am talking of being Born Again. You claim that it is a marketing tool and not an actual fact. Am I correct?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 03-25-2016 7:49 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 237 of 591 (790034)
08-24-2016 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
08-23-2016 11:23 AM


Re: how to market Jesus
jar writes:
If Christianity marketed Jesus' sacrifice as his life instead of his death then things look more reasonable. GOD performs miracles through Jesus just as GOD performed miracles through others in other stories. Jesus is then a lesson on what humans could be, what humans should do, what humans may face.
Jesus message then changes emphasis from a way to get outtahellfree towards a way to live, changes the focus from after death to during life, from "what's in it for me" towards "what am I supposed to do".
I believe that one of the big issues facing Christianity is that it seems to be choosing the easy marketing path instead of the harder marketing path which has resulted in so many folk seeing Christianity and Jesus message as totally irrelevant and just a waste of time and effort; as "it just doesn't make any sense". And I think their assessment is correct. Christianity as marketed today really doesn't make any sense and really is irrelevant.
One last point to bring dogma back into focus; this marketing plan says nothing about the state of Jesus before being born or after his ascension.
I would argue that it is not just a matter of starting to do things----anybody can be a do-gooder. The argument that I am making is that there is a transformation in ones life before they really want to do things. Unless they are a liberal humanitarian, of course...in which case they are taking up a cause rather than being transformed.
Oh and one more thing. You say that
GOD performs miracles through Jesus just as GOD performed miracles through others in other stories. Jesus is then a lesson on what humans could be, what humans should do, what humans may face.
I would agree that GOD performs miracles through people as they do for others...my only caveat being that God uses transformed vessels rather than just eager humanitarians.
Edited by Phat, : added point

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 08-23-2016 11:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 9:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 238 of 591 (790036)
08-24-2016 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Phat
08-24-2016 8:11 AM


Re: how to market Jesus
Phat writes:
So I am assuming that you believe much the same about any claim that dramatic transformations happen...even today. By dramatic transformations I am talking of being Born Again. You claim that it is a marketing tool and not an actual fact. Am I correct?
I'm saying being born again as practiced in much of today's Christianity is simply a worthless and pointless con game. I am saying "dramatic transformations" are worthless and meaning less unless demonstrated not by the dramatics but rather the simple minor day to day acts; putting carts back in the rack in the grocery store parking lot, holding the door for someone burdened, reaching for a box on a shelf another cannot reach, smiling at strangers, kneeling down so you are at eye level with the five year old, putting the neighbors trashcan away for them, picking up trash off the street, buying Girl Scout cookies even though you really hate them and will give them away, keeping a baggie with water and quickwipes and breakfast bars and candy and a few dollars in your car to give to beggers... . It is the little things not the dramatic things that make a difference.
Phat writes:
I would argue that it is not just a matter of starting to do things----anybody can be a do-gooder. The argument that I am making is that there is a transformation in ones life before they really want to do things. Unless they are a liberal humanitarian, of course...in which case they are taking up a cause rather than being transformed.
And I would say that is simply bullshit and and bumper sticker propaganda.
Can people change? Sure but the only way to tell if someone has changed is by their behavior. And the only way to change is for the person to make the change. I was a smoker for over a half century but three years ago I stopped smoking, not because I was told to stop smoking, not because I worried about what smoking was doing to me or others, not because I wanted to stop smoking, rather I just stopped smoking. BUT it is only after going three years without smoking that I even think about it. Nothing dramatic; just a change.
Phat writes:
I would agree that GOD performs miracles through people as they do for others...my only caveat being that God uses transformed vessels rather than just eager humanitarians.
If it makes YOU feel good to make that claim then go for it, but exactly how can you determine from results whether the person doing the act did it because they were transformed (what ever that word salad means) or simply to help another? Does it make any difference to the person helped? Does it matter whether the helper is eager or not? If the Lord loves a joyful giver does the Lord not also love the giver even if not all that joyful?
When I see stuff like "transformed vessels" or "born again" or "liberal humanitarian" or "do-gooder" or "taking up a cause" my BullShit detector pegs the needle. Those are simply patent phrases of the Cultural Conservative Christian snake oil salesmen.
The Bible says it in both the New and Old Testament. Jesus' parables are all about it. It ain't what you say, it ain't what you believe, it is what you do that indicates who you are and what you are.
The first step for Christians to begin following the Gospel is to throw God and Jesus away. Don't pray for them to transform you, to make you want to do stuff, change yourself. Just do it. Concentrate on Jesus life and on this life and let the next life take care of itself.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 8:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 239 of 591 (790041)
08-24-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
03-26-2016 12:57 PM


Re: Christianity 101
jar writes:
How does someone know they have a relationship of any kind or duration or interval with God?
No one knows in the critical thinking and reality-based logic of daily life since there is no evidence and one would be right to always question what they perceive. But if you were to take an informal poll, most would say that one just knows. The fact that you never knew or claimed to know is telling. Why are you different from the other believers? Are you too busy questioning your beliefs to ever accept any tentative answers? Are you saying--as you always have--that no one can ever know such things? I think its because you have never thought it possible to have any sort of relationship with GOD. You have always been too busy simply doing for others to give any thought or concern whether you were communing with GOD. Maybe you have always believed that YOU were responsible and that GOD being there communing with you was too silly a thought. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 03-26-2016 12:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 11:38 AM Phat has replied
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 08-24-2016 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 240 of 591 (790043)
08-24-2016 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
08-24-2016 11:13 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
No one knows in the critical thinking and reality-based logic of daily life since there is no evidence and one would be right to always question what they perceive. But if you were to take an informal poll, most would say that one just knows. The fact that you never knew or claimed to know is telling. Why are you different from the other believers? Are you too busy questioning your beliefs to ever accept any tentative answers? Are you saying--as you always have--that no one can ever know such things? I think its because you have never thought it possible to have any sort of relationship with GOD. You have always been too busy simply doing for others to give any thought or concern whether you were communing with GOD. Maybe you have always believed that YOU were responsible and that GOD being there communing with you was too silly a thought. Comments?
As you say, when asked the most common answer is "I just know!" Well to be honest, that says nothing and has no more worth or value than saying "I want a PB&J."
I have not said no one can ever know such things, I have said no one has ever shown any way that someone could know such things.
Can you tell me how you can know you are communing with God and not a bad burrito? What are the tests? How can you tell there is any communing and not just MASTERbation?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 11:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 12:00 PM jar has replied

  
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