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Author | Topic: Presuppositionalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Welcome back, ME!!!!!!!
I even suspect that there may be a fall of interpretation so my checklist confirms that I am a presuppositionalist. Now what? I think it would be most important to realize that every worldview has presuppositions, including atheism. The number of them, the extent of them, is comparable in every worldview.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3
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That's where you have it wrong. I don't need to "justify" my unbelief. Unbelief is the default condition. I don't need to justify my unbelief in your God any more than you have to justify your unbelief in Odin. This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world, but the fact is that every WORLDVIEW has opinions on how the world works - how a society should govern itself etc, and those opinions are on equal footing with religion concerning the threat they pose to the people at large which make up a society.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2503 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
marc9000 writes: I think it would be most important to realize that every worldview has presuppositions..... What are you presupposing when you express the above view?
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2417 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world, but the fact is that every WORLDVIEW has opinions on how the world works - how a society should govern itself etc, and those opinions are on equal footing with religion concerning the threat they pose to the people at large which make up a society. Yes, all morality stems from our presuppositions and subsequent, subjective application of them in the real world. If you presuppose the bible is true, you can easily dislike people just for being gay, for example. Which common atheist presuppositions pose a threat to society and how?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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marc writes: I think it would be most important to realize that every worldview has presuppositions, including atheism. Always the same mistake. Atheism is an absense of a religious worldview - it's no more a worldview than a disbelief in the tooth fairies is. If we lived in a world where no-one had invented a god, atheism wouldn't even have a name. If there is a presupposition for atheism, it's that others supposed that a god exists.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position. And your case only holds water if Gods do exist. We have to choose the most parsimonious. No supernatural entities is the null hypothesis. It's that way around because the appearance of a single one disproves it. If it were otherwise we'd have default positions for everything from hob goblins to spaghetti monsters. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Essentially, is what you are saying then is that that evidence is the default position rather than belief?
I see the logic, but disagree with the idea that belief is by necessity defined as relative.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world, but the fact is that every WORLDVIEW has opinions on how the world works - how a society should govern itself etc, and those opinions are on equal footing with religion concerning the threat they pose to the people at large which make up a society. You mean like how you hardly ever hear of atheists burning witches?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
marc9000 writes:
Who said anything about atheism? I was comparing one god with another.
This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world....
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
[qs=Phat]Essentially, is what you are saying then is that that evidence is the default position rather than belief?[qs]
Without evidence all you can do is waffle - as now. So yes, it's always best to have a hypothesis that can be tested.
I see the logic, but disagree with the idea that belief is by necessity defined as relative. Belief is relative to what? This god idea that you can invent something that can't be tested, then claim that it's the natural position against which other things must be compared is daft from any angle.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I didnt invent it though. Culturally I may have had an idea of the construct, but when He met me, I undeniably knew that He was not an invention of my mind or feelings.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Welcome Riggamortis, I don't think we've met before.
If you presuppose the bible is true, you can easily dislike people just for being gay, for example. I don't really agree with that - if a person applies the entire teaching of the Bible to his/her own life, it's not going to be easy to "dislike" someone who doesn't interfere with Bible believers (Christians) lives. What causes most of the dislike today is when gay people suddenly want brand new insertion of their lifestyle into the traditional public institution of marriage.
Which common atheist presuppositions pose a threat to society and how? The main atheist presupposition is that life originated from naturalistic processes, something they can't prove. Further, their presupposition that there is no God leads directly to their belief that humans are the highest form of intelligence, and basic principles that the U.S. was founded on, like the 10 commandments, become subjective. This quickly balloons into lopsided political opinions, like a fear of global warming. As an example, there is really no serious threat by the Christian community in the U.S. to give authorities permission to force their way into the private bedrooms of gay people and declare what they're doing to be illegal. But there IS a threat by the secular scientific community to demand that automobiles, after they're sold to a private owner, be monitored and regulated in how the engine is equipped, in the interest of controlling pollution standards that they themselves set. But my main point is that those with any type of naturalist worldview have presuppositions that are comparable in number, severity, in EVERY way, to the worldview of religious people.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Always the same mistake. Atheism is an absense of a religious worldview - it's no more a worldview than a disbelief in the tooth fairies is. Here's the definition of "worldview";
quote: Worldview - definition of worldview by The Free Dictionary Are you saying that atheists DON'T HAVE a naturalistic perspective from which they see and interpret the world? That they don't have a collection of beliefs about life and the universe?
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Who said anything about atheism? I was comparing one god with another. Let's have a look at your message that I was responding to;
quote: [bolded mine] You were referring to YOUR UNBELIEF. Looks like atheism to me. The o/p implied that presuppositionalism is an issue only with religion. It's equally an issue with atheism.
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