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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 591 (790044)
08-24-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
08-24-2016 11:13 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
No one knows in the critical thinking and reality-based logic of daily life....
So it's all based on wishful thinking and fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 11:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 11:47 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 591 (790045)
08-24-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
08-24-2016 11:41 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Not everything can be proven through evidence but this does not make it fantasy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 08-24-2016 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 08-24-2016 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 243 of 591 (790046)
08-24-2016 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
08-24-2016 11:47 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
Not everything can be proven through evidence but this does not make it fantasy.
That's pretty much the definition of fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 591 (790047)
08-24-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
08-24-2016 11:38 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Can you tell me how you can know you are communing with God and not a bad burrito? What are the tests?
  • The still small voice. CS Lewis called it the Moral Law.
    Mere Christianity writes:
    We all know what it
    feels like to be prompted by instinct-by mother love, or sexual instinct, or
    the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act
    in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of
    desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd
    instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that
    you ought to help whether you want to or not.
    Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires-one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which
    should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them.
    You might as well say
    that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note
    on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard.
    The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.
    Granted, Lewis does not say that this is found only within Christians.
    Mere Christianity writes:
    Strictly speaking, there are no such things as good and bad impulses. Think once again of a piano. It has not got two kinds of notes on it, the "right" notes and the "wrong" ones. mEvery single note is right at one time and wrong at another. The Moral Law is not any one instinct or any set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts.
    Lewis never mentions burritos, though if one only felt this way after eating one could be a test of sorts, I suppose.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 240 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 11:38 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 245 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 12:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 246 by ringo, posted 08-24-2016 12:33 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 245 of 591 (790048)
    08-24-2016 12:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
    08-24-2016 12:00 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Read your quote.
    Nowhere in that quote does C.S. Lewis suggest or say that is communing with God but rather what I call Jesus message, the calling, that we are compelled to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, protect the helpless...
    That Moral Law, the charge to do for others is entirely independent of spiritual beliefs and can be found in Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and atheists and agnostics and Satanists and Taoists and Shintoists and animists and pagans and garments and ancestors.
    That is entirely different than communing with God.
    So once again, how does someone know they are communing with God?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 244 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 12:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 246 of 591 (790049)
    08-24-2016 12:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
    08-24-2016 12:00 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    C.S. Lewis writes:
    The Moral Law is not any one instinct or any set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts.
    Lewis seems to think we need some external source to direct our instincts but in fact it's our social instincts directing our individual instincts that makes us "good people".

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 244 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 12:00 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 247 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 4:08 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 247 of 591 (790350)
    08-29-2016 4:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
    08-24-2016 12:33 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Lewis seems to think we break the rule all the time.
    Mere Christianity writes:
    These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that human
    beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave
    in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do
    not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.
    These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and
    the universe we live in.
    That law certainly does not mean "what human beings, in fact, do"; for as I
    said before, many of them do not obey this law at all, and none of them obey
    it completely. The law of gravity tells you what stones do if you drop them;
    but the Law of Human Nature tells you what human beings ought to do and do
    not. In other words, when you are dealing with humans, something else comes
    in above and beyond the actual facts. You have the facts (how men do behave)
    and you also have something else (how they ought to behave). In the rest of
    the universe there need not be anything but the facts.
    Thus Lewis supports the idea that we often(if not always) fail to do what we should do.
    Lewis then supports my quote about chance being a myth.
    Ever since men were able to think, they have been wondering what this
    universe really is and how it came to be there. And, very roughly, two views
    have been held. First, there is what is called the materialist view. People
    who take that view think that matter and space just happen to exist, and
    always have existed, nobody knows why; and that the matter, behaving in
    certain fixed ways, has just happened, by a sort of fluke, to produce
    creatures like ourselves who are able to think. By one chance in a thousand
    something hit our sun and made it produce the planets; and by another
    thousandth chance the chemicals necessary for life, and the right
    temperature, occurred on one of these planets, and so some of the matter on
    this earth came alive; and then, by a very long series of chances, the
    living creatures developed into things like us. The other view is the
    religious view. (*) According to it, what is behind the universe is more
    like a mind than it is like anything else we know.
    Regarding the law of right and wrong...even though we usually disobey it is there any chance that we won't? Does chance even enter into it??

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 246 by ringo, posted 08-24-2016 12:33 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 248 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 12:09 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 248 of 591 (790451)
    08-30-2016 12:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
    08-29-2016 4:08 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Phat writes:
    Thus Lewis supports the idea that we often(if not always) fail to do what we should do.
    Nobody disputes that. But we fail because - as I said - there's a conflict between our social instincts and our individual instincts. We want to save ourselves and at the same time we want to save our family.
    In reality, problems are complex. There are no easy solutions. THAT is why we fail. No magical spook is going to change that.
    Phat writes:
    Lewis then supports my quote about chance being a myth.
    He "supports" it with nothing but ignorance and incredulity.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 247 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 4:08 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:17 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 249 of 591 (790455)
    08-30-2016 12:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 248 by ringo
    08-30-2016 12:09 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    ringo the contrarian writes:
    He "supports" it with nothing but ignorance and incredulity.
    If you would rather believe in chance over certainty, I might have to pray for you more often!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 248 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 12:09 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 12:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 1:06 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 250 of 591 (790457)
    08-30-2016 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
    08-30-2016 12:17 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Phat writes:
    If you would rather believe in chance over certainty, I might have to pray for you more often!
    There is a very high probability that many peoples certainty is just wishful thinking.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 251 of 591 (790461)
    08-30-2016 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
    08-30-2016 12:17 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Phat writes:
    If you would rather believe in chance over certainty....
    It isn't a question of chance "over" certainty. If there is ANY chance of something happening, no matter how small that chance is, then it is certain that it WILL happen, given enough time. You don't need a miracle to roll a seven; you just have to roll the dice until it happens.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:17 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 252 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 4:44 PM ringo has replied
     Message 270 by Phat, posted 09-05-2016 6:57 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 252 of 591 (790470)
    08-30-2016 4:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
    08-30-2016 1:06 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Lewis was not an ignorant man and he explained the plausibility of Christianity much better than chance explains why we are the way we are.
    Mere Christianity writes:
    One
    of the things that surprised me when I first read the New Testament
    seriously was that it talked so much about a Dark Power in the universe-a
    mighty evil spirit who was held to be the Power behind death and disease,
    and sin. The difference is that Christianity thinks this Dark Power was
    created by God, and was good when he was created, and went wrong.
    Christianity agrees with Dualism that this universe is at war. But it does
    not think this is a war between independent powers. It thinks it is a civil
    war, a rebellion, and that we are living in a part of the universe occupied
    by the rebel.
    So whats so incredulous about that?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 1:06 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by GDR, posted 08-30-2016 7:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 255 by ringo, posted 08-31-2016 11:43 AM Phat has replied
     Message 257 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2016 11:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    (1)
    Message 253 of 591 (790482)
    08-30-2016 7:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
    08-30-2016 4:44 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Phat writes:
    So whats so incredulous about that?
    Did you ever think that the dark power that Lewis talks about might just be us?
    Edited by GDR, : ?

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6:8

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 4:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (1)
    Message 254 of 591 (790485)
    08-30-2016 7:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 253 by GDR
    08-30-2016 7:22 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    The fruit of the Tree was the knowledge of Good but also Evil.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by GDR, posted 08-30-2016 7:22 PM GDR has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 255 of 591 (790543)
    08-31-2016 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
    08-30-2016 4:44 PM


    Re: Christianity 101
    Phat writes:
    ... he explained the plausibility of Christianity much better than chance explains why we are the way we are.
    No he didn't. He didn't "explain" it at all. He just repeated the same old tired platitudes.
    Phat writes:
    Lewis was not an ignorant man...
    If he thought a thousand to one was poor odds, he was ignorant of mathematics.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 4:44 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 256 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 10:22 AM ringo has replied

      
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