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Author | Topic: Presuppositionalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course it's easier to prove something (to yourself) if you already believe it. But to solve a problem what you need is incentive to test your hypothesis. You're less likely to test what you already believe.
It may well be that proof is elusive without belief and that evidence is never evident without belief.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's where you have it wrong. I don't need to "justify" my unbelief. Unbelief is the default condition. I don't need to justify my unbelief in your God any more than you have to justify your unbelief in Odin.
You guys keep demanding evidence and using lack of same to justify your un belief! Phat writes:
I don't need heroin. Some people have a false need for heroin.
And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced--indeed reassured---that God is a myth.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
marc9000 writes:
Who said anything about atheism? I was comparing one god with another.
This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world....
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
marc9000 writes:
I said that my unbelief in YOUR God is the same as YOUR unbelief in Odin. Atheism would be unbelief in EVERY god.
You were referring to YOUR UNBELIEF. Looks like atheism to me.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Of course it is. Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position. The default position is that no Bigfeet exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. The default position is that Narnia doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. The default position is that France doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. Done. The default position is that no gods exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. And your presuppositions don't count as evidence.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
God is clearly a story invention. Even if there really is a God, the God you believe in is just a story.
Bigfoot was clearly a story invention. Narnia is clearly a place created in a children's story. Phat writes:
But you can go there. The observation of France is repeatable by anybody. The observation of God is not.
France clearly exists. People don't have to go there to prove it. Phat writes:
It should be.
Evidence is not the gold standard among believers. Phat writes:
Not really. Jesus Himself gave evidence when Thomas asked for it. The notion that faith/belief can take precedence is a scam fostered by priests for their own benefit.
The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard. Phat writes:
Nonsense. Belief is never anything but Plan B, a backup plan for when there is not enough evidence. At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration. Evidence IS the gold standard, the default position. Belief is never more than a poor substitute.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No. It's entirely the same. Why would you think it's different?
And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You didn't answer the question. Why do you think your God is different from Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Because there is One God that is not created nor imagined. He is the uncaused first cause.All of the rest have been created/imagined.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're still not answering the question. What reason is there to think that your God is not an invention of the human mind? Because both of those were inventions of the human mind If there is a "prime mover" that created all that is, how do you distinguish one description of it from another? Is it just a coincidence that you were born into a nation where the prevailing description is the "right" one?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What's the difference between the God in your scriptures and the god in anybody else's scriptures?
Because for one thing the human mind likely would never have invented the God of scripture. Phat writes:
What makes you think there is a "right One"? If there are so many "wrong ones", why is yours different?
The prevailing description in America is not the right One.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who said anything about morality? I asked why you think your god is the right one out of thousands of possibilities. The correct one, the "truth". Morality doesn't enter into it.
What makes me think mine is the right one? Because I believe in an absolute. I dont buy into this idea that what is right for you is on you and what is right for the next guy is up to him. Phat writes:
I bet you are - but we can discuss that in an appropriate topic.
I am not a moral relativist.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I find it bizarre that you would question that. If there is evidence, it IS the gold standard. It's the ONLY standard. How can you deny that? Ringo seems to think that evidence should be the "gold standard" in concluding any argument... And if there is no evidence, then one empty opinion is as good as another.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Ever hear of democracy? Other people's opinions can definitely have an effect on you. And more to the point, fundies often think they are being persecuted for their religious opinions. But after all is said and done, it is only your opinion that can matter or be of any value to you. So it might be worth your while to have a look at reality instead of just wrapping yourself in your own opinions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What does perseverance indicate? If a Muslim stands by his faith, what does that indicate about the value of his faith? Muslims live through hurricanes. Muslims are persecuted (see Myanmar). I would argue that people who stand for the faith rather than waffle on it like an armchair quarterback are themselves evidence of perseverance at least. If you have evidence of perseverance, so what?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Water behaves as we determine it should behave. If it doesn't behave that way, it isn't water.
Only because the hypothetical god does not behave as you determine He should behave. Phat writes:
Evidence can not be subjective. The interpretation of the evidence can be subjective - but if it is, it is inherently inferior to an objective interpretation.
So at best the evidence is subjective. Phat writes:
Why does God have to kill a bunch of people to develop the character of the survivors? Imagine how character-filled our children would be if we killed one in every family.
I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.
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