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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 591 (790679)
09-03-2016 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
08-31-2016 11:43 AM


Re: Christianity 101
aside from scoring points in this argument, what do you really think of CS Lewis? What about Simon Greenleaf?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 08-31-2016 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 09-03-2016 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 09-03-2016 11:56 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 257 of 591 (790681)
09-03-2016 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
08-30-2016 4:44 PM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
So whats so incredulous about that?
CS Lewis is just making shit up like everyone else in the game.
I'm going to shout this bit so you hear it
HE HAS NO SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
He's a story writer - he likes a good story. Why do you ascribe special insights to celebrity? Is it because there's nothing else?
What about Simon Greenleaf?
Does he have a special relationship with god that gives him knowledge you don't have? If so how and why?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 258 of 591 (790685)
09-03-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
09-03-2016 10:22 AM


on Simon Greenleaf
Phat writes:
What about Simon Greenleaf?
Simon Greenleaf is a great example of "Biblical Christian Freedom from Truth" as he is often mentioned in the fantasy where as an atheist he is challenged by a student to actually look at the evidence and does and gets "Born Again" as a Christian.
Well the facts as usual are slightly different. He was born into a Christian Family and was raised as a Christian. He was a Christian Apologist and as a lawyer used legal processes as a basis for a book he wrote. He did not found Harvard Law school as claimed by many current Christian liars but did help it expand. Remember that while Harvard was never formally affiliated with one denomination it was a primary training college for the Puritan Unitarian and Congregationalist denominations.
It's interesting to note that one of the driving forces towards creation of the college was outlined in an early publication as "to advance learning and perpetuate it to posterity, dreading to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches when our present ministers shall lie in the dust".
Simon Greenleaf came along a century or two after Harvard had moved away from its strongly Puritan flavor but after Harvard Divinity School was formally created.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 259 of 591 (790686)
09-03-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
09-03-2016 10:22 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
aside from scoring points in this argument...
I'm not trying to score points. I'm just trying to get you to think about what you say.
Phat writes:
... what do you really think of CS Lewis?
I've read The Screwtape Letters and seen the movie version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Lewis writes a pretty good fantasy but I avoid apologetics and "inspirational" claptrap no matter who wrote it. According to what you've quoted, Lewis often didn't know what he was talking about.
Phat writes:
What about Simon Greenleaf?
Who's he?
Edited by ringo, : Thpelling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 10:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 7:17 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 260 of 591 (790712)
09-03-2016 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
09-03-2016 11:56 AM


Who Was Simon Greenleaf?
Phat writes:
What about Simon Greenleaf?
Ringo writes:
Who's he?
jar writes:
Simon Greenleaf is a great example of "Biblical Christian Freedom from Truth" as he is often mentioned in the fantasy where as an atheist he is challenged by a student to actually look at the evidence and does and gets "Born Again" as a Christian.
I've never heard that version.
jar writes:
Well the facts as usual are slightly different. He was born into a Christian Family and was raised as a Christian. He was a Christian Apologist and as a lawyer used legal processes as a basis for a book he wrote.
Yes. His most famous book was The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by The Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice
jar writes:
He did not found Harvard Law school as claimed by many current Christian liars but did help it expand.
I never read where he founded the school either. All that I have read was that he was well educated in law.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 09-03-2016 11:56 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 09-03-2016 8:09 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 261 of 591 (790720)
09-03-2016 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
09-03-2016 7:17 PM


Re: Who Was Simon Greenleaf?
And you do understand that legal standing is entirely different than scientific standing?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 7:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 09-04-2016 12:13 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 262 of 591 (790724)
09-04-2016 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by jar
09-03-2016 8:09 PM


Re: Who Was Simon Greenleaf?
And you do understand that legal standing is entirely different than scientific standing?
Of course. Legal standing does not require physical evidence if adequate eyewitness testimony is found. What else do you want us to know?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 09-03-2016 8:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by PaulK, posted 09-04-2016 3:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-04-2016 7:58 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 263 of 591 (790736)
09-04-2016 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
09-04-2016 12:13 AM


Re: Who Was Simon Greenleaf?
I think that you will find that Simon Greenleaf made some errors in his legal thinking. For instance, is it enough that a document be purported to be written by an eyewitness for it to have significant weight in court ? Or are there further conditions to be met ?

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 264 of 591 (790741)
09-04-2016 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
09-04-2016 12:13 AM


Re: Who Was Simon Greenleaf?
Phat writes:
Legal standing does not require physical evidence if adequate eyewitness testimony is found.
And he was using the legal tests as they would have been applied at the time.
You do understand that?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 09-04-2016 12:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 09-04-2016 6:41 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 591 (790766)
09-04-2016 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
09-04-2016 7:58 AM


Rebuttals of Greenleafs claims of authenticity
jar writes:
And he was using the legal tests as they would have been applied at the time.
You do understand that?
Yes. There has been some controversy over Greenleafs conclusions.
Wiki writes:
Howard Richard Packham is a retired foreign language instructor and former part-time estate planning attorney who holds to an atheist worldview. He has written an internet article criticising the technical arguments set forth by Greenleaf and others.
This critique is found here. Critique of John Warwick Montgomery's Arguments for the Legal Evidence for Christianity Packham essentially concludes that the Gospels were made up.
Packham writes:
Is it any surprise that four imaginative and faithful writers would be able to come up with an impressive life story? Except that their details contradict each other, which shows that the gospels are fictionalized legends, and not based on personal knowledge.
Of course nearly all modern Christian apologists will deny this to be their conclusion, but if we assume that the stories really were just stories told round a campfire, does this impact our belief in any way? You may argue that the tales still have value...but I would insist that Jesus be who the Nicene Creed says He is and not some made up character like Long John Silver.
Of course, if your conclusion that all humans are alike and none are chosen or special is true, perhaps we better go with your conclusions in your belief statement.
I'll say one thing, though. The view that you defend (and which ringo largely agrees with) is not found anywhere else that I have found. People whom I have met are either believers ascribing largely to Pauls marketing and an inerrant Bible or they are atheists like Tangle who refuse to entertain anything unproven by evidence.
If anything, these conclusions strengthen my faith that God will help me to be stronger rather than weaken it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-04-2016 7:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 09-04-2016 7:31 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 266 of 591 (790767)
09-04-2016 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
09-04-2016 6:41 PM


Re: Rebuttals of Greenleafs claims of authenticity
Phat writes:
Yes. There has been some controversy over Greenleafs conclusions.
Greenleaf's conclusions are not really as great an issue as his methodology. Even in a court of law Greenleaf's arguments would not stand up to examination today.
Phat writes:
Of course nearly all modern Christian apologists will deny this to be their conclusion, but if we assume that the stories really were just stories told round a campfire, does this impact our belief in any way?
Yet the details in the stories as in much of the Bible do contradict each other and are mutually exclusive. In addition many stories (Paul's encounter, the Great Commission, the immediate aftermath of Jesus death) also show classic signs of embellishment and evolution as retold and manipulation as they are presented to different audiences.
Phat writes:
You may argue that the tales still have value...but I would insist that Jesus be who the Nicene Creed says He is and not some made up character like Long John Silver.
But the Nicene Creed makes no statements of fact and does not even address the issue of factuality; it is simply a statement of belief.
Phat writes:
I'll say one thing, though. The view that you defend (and which ringo largely agrees with) is not found anywhere else that I have found. People whom I have met are either believers ascribing largely to Pauls marketing and an inerrant Bible or they are atheists like Tangle who refuse to entertain anything unproven by evidence.
But what does that have to do with anything more than you having a limited exposure?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 09-04-2016 6:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 09-04-2016 10:33 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 591 (790769)
09-04-2016 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
09-04-2016 7:31 PM


Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Me writes:
I'll say one thing, though. The view that you defend (and which ringo largely agrees with) is not found anywhere else that I have found. People whom I have met are either believers ascribing largely to Pauls marketing and an inerrant Bible or they are atheists like Tangle who refuse to entertain anything unproven by evidence.
jar writes:
But what does that have to do with anything more than you having a limited exposure?
Nothing. I am just saying that in the course of my limited exposure I have never seen anyone else that believes quite like you do.
I expect people like Tangle to deny that God (or even Jesus) ever existed. What I'm not used to is a person such as yourself who agrees with the evidence that atheists use in critical thought and evidence and yet still believe.
Are there any notable people that you can think of that believe that Christianity is about what one does and that everyone on the planet is free from damnation without need of a belief in a messiah?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 09-04-2016 7:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 09-05-2016 8:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 269 by GDR, posted 09-05-2016 1:20 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 591 (790778)
09-05-2016 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
09-04-2016 10:33 PM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Phat writes:
Are there any notable people that you can think of that believe that Christianity is about what one does and that everyone on the planet is free from damnation without need of a belief in a messiah?
Well the vast majority of people believe no Messiah is needed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 269 of 591 (790790)
09-05-2016 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
09-04-2016 10:33 PM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Phat writes:
Are there any notable people that you can think of that believe that Christianity is about what one does and that everyone on the planet is free from damnation without need of a belief in a messiah?
As I see it, that is the major problem with fundamentalism in a nutshell. It has become all about personal salvation. That is where the focus is. What that dose is to turn Christianity on its ear. It makes it all about me, and what will happen to me when I die. It is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.
Yes, God through Jesus saves people from eternal damnation, or from separation from God, but that establishes the vocation that we are called to of infecting the world with God’s love. It is about being saved for a purpose here and now.
Remember, that when the Gospels refer to the Kingdom of God or in Matthew the Kingdom of Heave that is not about going to heaven when you die. That is about the Kingdom that God established through Jesus for this world that began with the ascension.
What happens in the next life will take care of itself and it is our hearts, not what we give intellectual ascent to that will determine our place in that life. Yes as we pray for in the Lord’s prayer, (save us from the time of trial), Jesus’ disciples can be considered righteous by God, but It isn’t up to us to figure out or worry about who is in or who is out. As Jesus said, in the Sermon on the Mount, Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Edited by GDR, : dose not does

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 09-04-2016 10:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Phat, posted 09-05-2016 7:21 PM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 270 of 591 (790798)
09-05-2016 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
08-30-2016 1:06 PM


Re: Christianity 101
There you go preaching chance again!
quote:
I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act. ~Buddha
If that quote attributed to Buddha is correct, Christianity is in fact based on what we do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 09-06-2016 11:55 AM Phat has replied

  
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