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Author | Topic: Is God All Loving? Does the bible support Inclusion (Universalism)? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
Hi all! I'm new to this particular forum, but I've been reading your comment's, and I've also made a few, and no one has given me a real reason to stop believing that God is not going to save everyone, eventually. Yes, I said it, which would also imply that we humans do not have "free will". By the way, I am a christian.
I've posted a message on a few threads, and I'll put it on here as well, just so you know where I'm coming from. Remember, I'm only looking for the truth, so if you have it, or think that you do, please share. Here's what I've been posting on other threads: About this "free-will" discussion: There are too manyscriptures in the OT and NT that refute such an idea, plus, it just wouldn't make sense. Keep in mind that I'm a christian, lol(seriously!). People always say that "God will never force himself onanyone", and in the same breath make the statement, "God is All-Powerful". So let me ask you all a question. If God is ALL powerful, then that would mean that no one else has any power, correct? The word "all" is one of the strongest words in the english language. It's right up there with the word's "yes" and "no" and "everything" and "nowhere" and "none"................the word "all" is an absolute word, meaning that it's all-inclusive, there's nothing left out of the word "all". I once told this to someone and they told me that the word "all" wasn't absolute, but a mysterious word. I wanted to kick my computer when he typed that in. People, christians, religous people try to make everything so spiritual and deep, but there's nothing deep about the word "all". For example, if you have a bag of chips, and I ask you to give me "all" of your chips, and you give me two chips, well then, YOU DIDN'T GIVE ME WHAT I ASKED FOR, DID YOU! Therefore, I conclude that the word "all" is an absolute word. Now that that point has been made, back to the original one I was trying to make. If God is ALL powerful, like some proclaim that he is, then that would mean that no one else has any power, because he has "all" of it, and to say that God won't force himself on you is just preposterous (hope I spelled that right, lol), because to say that the same God that you proclaim to have ALL power has to force ANYTHING to happen would be a contradiction. To say that God forces ANYTHING is to say that there is ANOTHER force in the universe capable of giving the ALL powerful being resistance, but, because he is the force that causes all other forces to be, it's no longer a matter of forcing, but of his will being accomplished! The longer you think about it, free will can't exist, because if it truly existed you could choose not to die!, but we know that it is appointed to each man once to die (Heb.9:27).....For in Adam "ALL" died (1Cor.15:22), so there's no escaping that. According to the bible, your already dead, if you want to be technical (how do you escape that reality if you have a free moral agency?) You know, it's hilarious, and at the same time sickening to realize that the ones who go to the scriptures to justify their claims of "free thought", otherwise none as "free moral agency", they'll skip over completely the verses, scriptures, even whole chapters that condradict their beliefs. I was brought up to believe that the bible never, ever condradicted itself, that it never cancelled itself out. I've not always agreed with the things that I've written to this forum (whoever "chooses" to read it), but I'll say this, that if your going to use a scripture, then it most stand at FULL STRENGTH, regardless of what the others scriptures say, because each scripture MUST be in perfect harmony one with another. If not, then the book is a lie, and if I ever find that out (which I know I won't) I'll quit just as soon as I do. You can't pick and choose which scriptures you want, and which ones you don't. It's the whole book, or none of it, if your going to call yourself a christian. This is a message I wrote to a friend, not specifically about"free-will", but definitely in direct relation. It`s foolish for us to assume that we can do anything independent of God the Father. The word "free" by definition means "not controlled by obligation or the will of another", or, "not disturbed by any outside influences", this would include the influence of God also. If we were really "free" then there would be no point in praying for anyone, since God himself couldn`t influence them (and he`s All-Powerful). If we were truly "free" then we could choose to see the truth, whether, or not God wanted us to, but it`s evident that only God can open the eyes of the blind (Deut.29:4), so if he never opens your eyes you`ll never see! Some will say that God gives you a choice, then, if you pick the right one, he`ll influence you to live out that choice, but that wouldn`t even be consistent with scripture. Sure, God sets choices in front of us, just as Pharoah, but the choice i s already made, for the works were finished from the foundation of the world (age-Greek), which is found in Heb.4:3. Also, he has declared the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isa.46:9-11). There`s so much the scriptures say refuting the false notion of free will that I would be typing for hours, so before you read what I told my friend I`ll say one more thing; Everyone has a heart, and the heart is the will of the man (or woman), but God fashions the heart (Psa.33:15), so then EVERYTHING that is in the will of the man to do is because God made it so...........Enjoy! Anyway, so you know, I believe that eventually, God shall recieve therestitution of All things (Acts.3:19-21) in the dispensation of the fulness of times (Eph.1:10), and when that happens, God shall be All in All (1Cor.15:28). For no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost (Spirit--same thing, 1Cor.12:3), and eventually, At the name of Jesus Every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil.2:9-11). I can see that your intelligent, I just hope that you don`t assume that I`m saying anything, because most do (I`m not saying you are though). Just for clarification purposes, I never said that there wasn`t a Hell, or a Lake of Fire, or that sinners were not going to be in them. Likewise, I never asserted that Jesus Christ wasn`t the only way to the Father (John.14:6), what I am saying though, is that All have sinned and come short of God`s glory (Rom.3:23) an d we that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9), because if we couldn`t come to Jesus, unless God the Father was drawing us (John.6:44), then we shouldn`t be bragging anyway, because if we could`ve come to Jesus without the Father's draw, then we would be free, and Jesus would also be a liar, but we know that neither of these statements are true, because no one can resist the Will of God (Rom.9:19). I`m not trying to preach to you, I`m just expressing what I believe God has revealed to me. If I`m wrong, then I pray that God open my eyes to the truth, for only he can open the eyes of the blind (Deut.29:4), and If I`m right, then All the glory goes to God. With that said, allow me to speak openly about the scriptures..............................If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam All die, even so in Christ shall All be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ`s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he (God the Father) hath put all enemie s under his (Jesus') feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (God the Father) saith, All things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Jesus). And when All things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father), that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:19-28). You see, the word "restitution" literally means, by definition, to return to the rightful owner All that was taken away, lost, or surrendered, and Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke.19:10), and He can`t fail, for God is Love (1 John.4:8), it`s not an attribute (Love) of God, it`s what he is, and Love (Charity) never fails (1Cor.13:8), it`s impossible, because He`s All-Powerful. That`s also why he can`t lie, because how can you lie when everything you say is becomes the truth, even if God tried (even though an All powerful being doesn't try, or want, just does!) to spread a rumor, as soon as he spoke it, as a matter of fact, as soon as he thought it, it would become truth! He said let there be light, and boom!, there it was. So since God is All-Powerful, then whatever he wants to happen will happen, which means that if God want`s something to happen, then it`s impossible for anyone to stop it, likewise if He doesn`t want something to happen it`s impossibl e for anyone to accomplish it, because He`s All-Powerful. So if God isn`t willing that anyone perish (2 Pet.3:9)...........how can it happen? Listen, God can`t fail, and to fail literally means to "miss themark", which translated from the Greek is defined by one word, "Sin". We know that there is no sin in God, because God can`t fail, so, with that being said, If Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth (which he has been) I`ll draw all men unto me" (John.12:32), and all men haven`t been drawn to him, in fact I`ll go further, All HAVEN`T heard of Christ, plenty have passed on without hearing of Him. He told the disciples to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark.16:15), and while it`s obvious that he said that, it`s also abundantly clear that knowledge was still limited at the time, because the Apostles didn`t have access to automobiles, planes, telephones, pagers, the internet, etc. The printing press, which was invented by Johann Gutenberg, wasn`t available, until the year 1450. So, if God (who is All-Loving) can`t fail, and he made that statement in John.12:32, and MOST ha ve passed on without even hearing of Christ, then that Must mean that he will draw All, eventually, every man in his own order (1Cor.15.23). I know that I`ve written a lot, but trust me, there`s much, much more. Please tell me what you think...........and if this is not making any sense, please tell what you think of this passage of scripture: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manisfestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; Because the creature itself also shall be delievered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hop e: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it (Rom.8:19-25). Just a side note, when it says "the whole creation" in ver.8 and when it says "the creature" in verses.19, 20, 21, these are literally translated as the words "every creature" as is illustrated in Mark.16:15 and Col.1:23. The words "to wit" in ver.23 simply means "in other words", and just so there`s no confusion, you can substitute the word "liberty" in ver.21 for the word "freedom" (they`re synonymous terms). Anyway, please write back, I`d love to hear what you think, until then, Peace!
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AdminBrian Inactive Member |
HI Solja,
What seems to be the problem Solja, is there any particular reason why your are opening the same thread in different forums? AdminBrian.
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soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
Oh, I'm sorry, I can't do that? I'm new, if I'm not supposed to do that, I'll take them down, sorry.
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AdminBrian Inactive Member |
HI,
It is no problem, I thought perhaps you were having difficulties. If you could decided which forum you would like to keep your topic in, I suggest this one, and delete the others I would very much appreciate it. Thankyou very much for your help, if you have any further questions I would be happy to assist. AdminBrian.
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soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
I've already deleted the other ones, thanks man!
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soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
Ok, lol, little bit of a problem, I thought I deleted them, but I didn't. I obviously don't know how. How do I do it? (faith and belief, evolution).
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AdminBrian Inactive Member |
It is ok, I will close the faith and belief one and the other admins will deal with their own forums.
Thanks again for you help here. AdminBrian
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soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
Thanks
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soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
How do I get all these messages off my thread, the delete button isn't working, I'm trying to get the ones of you, and me talking off of it?
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Newborn Inactive Member |
Here is my opinion:
First,God gives us an OPORTUNITY. In that oportunity he proposes many EVENTS to us (QUANTUM STATES). In our HEARTS(SOUL) we CHOICE an ATTITUDE. God looks at the attitude and dependant of the attitude he decides what event our body will pass through(and the additional spiritual bless to give us).Thats all. The capital letters words are the Keywords. What is an opportunity? I will explain with an example. Suppose that you are sleeping.You then dont have free will have you? But sometimes when you are awaked you have.That interval of time is named an opportunity and is given by God.You only can have a choice in an opportunity. I think you know the meaning of the other words.If dont, reply.
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soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
I see what your saying Newborn, but the Bible specifically speaks of Predestination (Eph.1:5,11). The translation of "predestination" from the greek means "to be limited in advance". We can say what we want about choice, but our choices have already been chosen. It's all apart of the plan. Every choice you make is apart of the plan. Even the choices that we think that we're making contrary to the plan are all apart of the plan, because God is All powerful, and because of that, No One Can Resist His Will (Rom.9:23).
And, if predestinated, then there's nothing we can do about it. Even the unbelievers, for they're choices too have been declared from the foundation of the earth (1Pet.2:4; Jude.4; Heb.4:3). Meaning also, that we don't have anything to do with it, so if that's the case, then that means that God has to take totally resposibility, for how else can he recieve All the glory, unless he was totally responsible; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (Rom.9:11). He is All powerful. And, since God hath concluded All in unbelief, he shall have mercy upon the EXACT SAME ALL (Rom.11:32). Peace and Love!
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Newborn Inactive Member |
But the Devil is predestined to go to Hell.Dont it mades God unfair?
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soljafolife Inactive Junior Member |
Not necessarily, because we understand that before the foundation of this world, God was, and so were His angels. We understand by reading that prophets that Lucifer was at one time, as my friends would put it, cool. He was just chillin, flying around praising God, then he fell, or got dropped, as my friends would put it. Now, if we can understand that (and I know I'll lose people on this), then we should be able to understand that eventually, God will restore All, including Satan, because "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us" (Eccl.1:9,10).
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Smitty500 Inactive Member |
You can say predestination has already made our choices for us or look at it this way. Which in my opinion makes more sense.This is just an illustration Imagine you are God and can travel forward and backward in time. Now you go to the time when the book is written(the Book of LIfe) then you go back to the time when you left. Now God knows the names of people who will be in hell and those who will be in heaven. He hasn't made any choices just taken a "sneak peak". Every person has many choices to make but this one is the most important one anyone will ever make.
God definately has a plan but if you feel God calling on your heart than accept him at face value. I don't think he won't accept you because it wasn't part of his plan. If you don't accept him for your whole life than obviously it was part of his plan. And yes are choices are made by God for us but hey it's part of a Great plan. Now to say that everyone will be restored contradicts the bible in many places. Here is one example. John 5:29 "and come out-- those who have odne good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." Condemned to be restored? no. JOhn 5:40 "Yet you refuse to come to me to have life" This shows two things, one that we have a choice and two that there is eternal life and there is an eternal death. One cannot assume that he is talking about physical life, most of the apostles were martyred and the bible would speak about their resurrection in the flesh if it were so. To think that Satan will be restored is also not biblical look at Revelation chapter 20. The one section of the chapter is titled Satan's Doom 20:10 And the devil, who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ThanxGod Bless [This message has been edited by Smitty500, 02-13-2004]
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kendemyer Inactive Member |
Here is why Universalism is not Biblically supported:
Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Man goes, as it is written of Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be good for that man if he had not been born." "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8) Sincerely, Ken
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