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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 271 of 591 (790799)
09-05-2016 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by GDR
09-05-2016 1:20 PM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
As I see it, that is the major problem with fundamentalism in a nutshell. It has become all about personal salvation. That is where the focus is. What that does is to turn Christianity on its ear. It makes it all about me, and what will happen to me when I die. It is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.
I agree, and what you say reminds me of Jesus prayer:
John 17:6-9 writes:
I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Note how Jesus prays for those whom God has given Him and not simply everybody.
GDR writes:
God through Jesus saves people from eternal damnation, or from separation from God, but that establishes the vocation that we are called to of infecting the world with God’s love. It is about being saved for a purpose here and now.
I agree that we are called to infect the world with Gods love and that we dont know whom God may have given us so it is best to treat everyone the same. I don't believe that everyone is going to make it---and quite honestly I myself may end up being one of the casualties. In a sense, its a bit like natural selection. Only the worthy people survive to carry out the next great commission.
Jar may well be right in that many of these people won't even be Christians.
My point is that not everybody will survive the spiritual pruning that will take place.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by GDR, posted 09-05-2016 1:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by GDR, posted 09-05-2016 8:28 PM Phat has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 272 of 591 (790802)
09-05-2016 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Phat
09-05-2016 7:21 PM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Phat writes:
I agree that we are called to infect the world with Gods love and that we dont know whom God may have given us so it is best to treat everyone the same. I don't believe that everyone is going to make it---and quite honestly I myself may end up being one of the casualties. In a sense, its a bit like natural selection. Only the worthy people survive to carry out the next great commission.
Jar may well be right in that many of these people won't even be Christians.
My point is that not everybody will survive the spiritual pruning that will take place.
There is still this focus on who is in and who is out. I don’t understand what you mean by the next great commission, but if you mean the life next life them maybe you have missed the point.
It isn’t about what we do, it is about our hearts. Deep down who is it that we love.? What or who de we serve? As you can see in my signature what God wants of all mankind is humble; kindness or mercy and justice. That isn’t just the call or message for Christians but for everyone and everyone is worthy of that call. We have the choice to reject it a little, a lot or even completely.
Christianity is about Jesus the Messiah who was crucified, resurrected and enthroned by God. When this world is renewed it is for all creation but my belief is that there will be those that reject it, and God honours that decision. I know I’ve quoted CS Lewis form his book The Great Divorce but I’ll trot it out again.
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.
I recommend Lewis’ book The Grat Divorce and also The Last Battle from the Narnia series as I believe that using metaphor he presents a really good understanding of all of this.
Phat writes:
Christianity is in fact based on what we do.
Not really. It is based on Jesus, His story, His message and His resurrection. What we do as Christians should flow from God’s love but it isn’t about doing things to earn God’s favour. I was blessed with growing up in a loving environment. Do you really think that I should be on an equal footing with someone who grew up in a cold abusive situation. Should I be treated on an equal footing with someone who grew up in a home where in order to make one’s father proud it is necessary to be a suicide bomber?
I go with Paul. I’m not concerned about who is in and who is out. My concern is to be what God hopes I’ll be, and to be the person that He enabled me to be. Like everyone else I keep screwing up, but hopefully through all of this my heart is at least moving incrementally towards where God’s wants it to be.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Phat, posted 09-05-2016 7:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:21 AM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 273 of 591 (790834)
09-06-2016 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Phat
09-05-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
There you go preaching chance again!
quote:
I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act. ~Buddha
If that quote attributed to Buddha is correct, Christianity is in fact based on what we do.
quote:
Tonight the Great Pumpkin will rise out of the pumpkin patch. He flies through the air and brings toys to all the children of the world. ~ Linus Van Pelt
If that quote attributed to Linus Van Pelt is correct, how would you know?
And what does that have to do with chance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 09-05-2016 6:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 09-06-2016 4:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 274 of 591 (790849)
09-06-2016 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by ringo
09-06-2016 11:55 AM


Re: Christianity 101
ringo writes:
If that quote attributed to Linus Van Pelt is correct, how would you know?
And what does that have to do with chance?
I don't know whether any of the internet quotes I find are correct unless I've verified the source in at least 3 different places.
Buddha allegedly talks of fate. fate and chance are essentially the same thing...its a false belief(in my opinion) in that its impersonal and random. What Buddha says...however...is that if fate exists it exists necessarily contingent on what we do. That's closer to Christianity than random chance is.
Edited by Phat, : changed Gandhi to Buddha..i knew it was one of them

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 09-06-2016 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 09-07-2016 3:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 591 (790885)
09-07-2016 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by GDR
09-05-2016 8:28 PM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
GDR writes:
There is still this focus on who is in and who is out. I don’t understand what you mean by the next great commission, but if you mean the life next life them maybe you have missed the point.
Perhaps I should have worded it better. I mean the ongoing Great Commission.
It isn’t about what we do, it is about our hearts.
I believe they go together. jar caused me to think and I believe he has a point in saying that Christianity is about what we do. I always jokingly refer to him as the apostle to the atheists!
Deep down who is it that we love? What or who do we serve?
Were I to be honest, I would say that I know that I should serve others more and serve myself less..and this is an ongoing charge and call in my heart,mind, and practical life.
As you can see in my signature what God wants of all mankind is humble; kindness or mercy and justice. That isn’t just the call or message for Christians but for everyone and everyone is worthy of that call. We have the choice to reject it a little, a lot or even completely.
Yes, I think we are on the same page.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by GDR, posted 09-05-2016 8:28 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:45 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 276 of 591 (790889)
09-07-2016 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
09-07-2016 11:21 AM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Phat writes:
I believe they go together. jar caused me to think and I believe he has a point in saying that Christianity is about what we do. I always jokingly refer to him as the apostle to the atheists!
Yet I have nothing to market to atheists. If there is a group I try to reach it is Christians not any other demographic; it is how Christianity is marketed that I consider incorrect and harmful.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 09-29-2016 10:05 AM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 277 of 591 (790896)
09-07-2016 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Phat
09-06-2016 4:59 PM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
I don't know whether any of the internet quotes I find are correct unless I've verified the source in at least 3 different places.
Don't confuse "accurate" with "correct". Accurate means he really did say that. Correct means he knew what the hell he was talking about. Buddha may have actually said what you quoted and he may have actually believed it but that doesn't make it true.
Phat writes:
...its a false belief(in my opinion) in that its impersonal and random.
On the other hand, we know that impersonal and random things do happen. But we do not know about any spook that's guiding things. THAT is the belief, so it might be false. What we KNOW is not false.
Phat writes:
What Buddha says...however...is that if fate exists it exists necessarily contingent on what we do.
I don't think anybody disputes that there are consequences to our actions. Where Buddha descends into empty belief is in carrying the consequences over from generation to generation. Essentially, he reduces the responsibility of the following generations. That is in the vicinity of Original Sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 09-06-2016 4:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 591 (791963)
09-28-2016 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
03-26-2016 12:27 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
Regarding Pauls Epistles.
quote:
EPISTLE
Ancient letters normally followed a pattern which included: (1) an introduction, listing the names of sender and recipient, followed by a formal greeting inquiring about the recipient's health and a thanksgiving formula; (2) a body, or purpose for writing; and (3) a conclusion, consisting of appropriate remarks and a farewell. The farewell was normally written in the hand of the sender to show the recipient it was an authentic letter.
The apostle Paul's epistles follow this pattern, with the following exceptions. Paul replaced the bland greeting of inquiry about health with a salutation combining Christian grace and Hebrew peace. His thanksgiving was likewise more than a formality; it was a sincere expression of gratitude for the well-being of his congregations.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
Paul did far more than write business memos. Paul saw himself as an overseer appointed by God. Any business references are secondary.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 03-26-2016 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 09-28-2016 3:17 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 279 of 591 (791974)
09-28-2016 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Phat
09-28-2016 12:25 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
Phat writes:
Paul did far more than write business memos. Paul saw himself as an overseer appointed by God.
So he saw himself as God's customer service representative. Keeping your existing customers happy is just as important as getting new customers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 09-28-2016 12:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 09-29-2016 12:21 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 280 of 591 (791979)
09-29-2016 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by ringo
09-28-2016 3:17 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
what makes you think it was a business? I see no evidence apart from the fact that all of modern religion is essentially a way to earn a living. I know smaller Pastors such as my own Pastor Joe Aragon at Tha Myx Church needs to work a day job to supplement what little he gets from the church...basically just supplies and an occasional gas voucher. His day job is a gang Outreach Coordinator with the State of Colorado. Paul was a tent maker. There appears to be little evidence that Paul was in any way in it for growing a business. He felt led to spread the good news of the Gospels to the non Jew. In Pauls mind, the messenger was the message. I believe that is still the case.
Perhaps it would be the same as if we sought to spread the message of good works and personal accountability to every soul on earth. Is Jesus important any more or is good works for good works sake enough?
Which leads to a question: Was spreading the early church throughout the land seen by anyone as a business? The truth was told and not sold.
What is the difference between a business and free shareware? What message are we sharing?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 09-28-2016 3:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 9:02 AM Phat has replied
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 09-29-2016 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 281 of 591 (791981)
09-29-2016 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
09-29-2016 12:21 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
Phat writes:
Which leads to a question: Was spreading the early church throughout the land seen by anyone as a business? The truth was told and not sold.
Again, Phat, that's not really the case except for the very early church. It was Christianity becoming a State Religion with membership offering economic, political and power advantages that spread and grew the Christian Church and the Church was not spread based on truth but rather force.
Christianity grew by soldiers killing all the priests of the other faiths and wiping out any signs of a different religion, by adopting those events that were popular and re-branding them as Christian, by requiring membership in a particular chapter to engage in commerce and by physically expelling and taking all the possessions of members of other religions.
Christianity before becoming a State Religion was never more than a tiny irrelevant fringe cult.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 09-29-2016 12:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Phat, posted 09-29-2016 9:58 AM jar has not replied
 Message 284 by GDR, posted 09-29-2016 11:17 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 282 of 591 (791982)
09-29-2016 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by jar
09-29-2016 9:02 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
I wouldn't call it irrelevant. The power of Jesus is, in my opinion, a matter of Who He is and not what we did with the brand. I will as a Christian take responsibility for the wrongs done by our religion, but I also believe that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was and is the defining moment in the very History and Destiny of our planet.
Thats my beliefs, however. You are talking of the evidence that History shows us. And I concur.
I know you think that excusing bad behavior on original sin, or a devil,or the flesh is in your mind a cop out.
I believe that we all are responsible, and that we collectively become and live out the decisions that we make.
I will argue something that you have brought up before. You say that Saul becoming Paul was not a great transformation.
I would argue otherwise and would further argue that the changes and transformations within us today are not based solely on what we do but are made great through the living Christ. His life was relevant and His death, burial, and resurrection also were quite relevant.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 9:02 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 591 (791983)
09-29-2016 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
09-07-2016 11:45 AM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
jar writes:
If there is a group I try to reach it is Christians not any other demographic; it is how Christianity is marketed that I consider incorrect and harmful.
Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 11:33 AM Phat has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 284 of 591 (791986)
09-29-2016 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by jar
09-29-2016 9:02 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
jar writes:
Again, Phat, that's not really the case except for the very early church. It was Christianity becoming a State Religion with membership offering economic, political and power advantages that spread and grew the Christian Church and the Church was not spread based on truth but rather force.
Christianity grew by soldiers killing all the priests of the other faiths and wiping out any signs of a different religion, by adopting those events that were popular and re-branding them as Christian, by requiring membership in a particular chapter to engage in commerce and by physically expelling and taking all the possessions of members of other religions.
Christianity before becoming a State Religion was never more than a tiny irrelevant fringe cult.
That's nonsense jar. It spread initially by those without power at all and then there was Paul who gave up power to spread the message often from prison. If it was such a fringe group then why were the Romans so concerned about it that they were having them executed , and if it was such small group how did it even manage to spread to Rome in the first place?
Rome and Christianity
From that site"
quote:
Religion was very important to the Romans. Within the Roman Empire, Christianity was banned and Christians were punished for many years. Feeding Christians to the lions was seen as entertainment in Ancient Rome.
The message of Christianity was spread around the Roman Empire by St. Paul who founded Christian churches in Asia Minor and Greece. Eventually, he took his teachings to Rome itself.
The early converts to Christianity in Ancient Rome faced many difficulties. The first converts were usually the poor and slaves as they had a great deal to gain from the Christians being successful. If they were caught, they faced death for failing to worship the emperor. It was not uncommon for emperors to turn the people against the Christians when Rome was faced with difficulties. In AD 64, part of Rome was burned down. The Emperor Nero blamed the Christians and the people turned on them. Arrests and executions followed.
Nero punished a race of men who were hated for their evil practices. These men were called Christians. He got a number of people to confess. On their evidence a number of Christians were convicted and put to death with dreadful cruelty. Some were covered with the skins of wild beasts and left to be eaten by dogs. Others were nailed to the cross. Many were burned alive and set on fire to serve as torches at night.Tacitus
The dangers faced by the Christians in Rome meant that they had to meet in secret. They usually used underground tombs as these were literally out of sight. Rome had a large number of poor people within its population and Christianity continued to grow. In AD 313, the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal and for the first time, they were allowed to openly worship. Churches were quickly built not just in Rome but throughout the empire. In AD 391, the worship of other gods was made illegal.
So, it wasn't even legal for Christians to worship in Rome until 311AD. Christians were weak and powerless for roughly 300 years and it spread because it was a religion based on love and not power.
You call yourself a Christian but i asked you before to name anything that you believe that differentiates you from any theist who believes in a god that is good. Actually from what I have read that you have written, it seems to me that you are closest to being a Buddhist who attends a Christian church.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 9:02 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 11:44 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 285 of 591 (791987)
09-29-2016 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phat
09-29-2016 10:05 AM


Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
Phat writes:
I would argue otherwise and would further argue that the changes and transformations within us today are not based solely on what we do but are made great through the living Christ. His life was relevant and His death, burial, and resurrection also were quite relevant.
And I would ask if that really has any meaning or was just word salad?
Phat writes:
Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?
I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 09-29-2016 10:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:28 AM jar has replied

  
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