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Author Topic:   Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 106 of 427 (791102)
09-10-2016 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
09-10-2016 8:05 AM


I am not "struggling" to find out anything about rock layers. I suppose you draw that wrong conclusion from the other thread? But that thread has the purpose of showing that the standard Geo understanding is wrong.
Your failure to understand standard geology is manifestly on display in that thread. You don't appear to even know what it is that is wrong after 100s of posts on the matter.
When he describes how YECs reacted to his changed views I feel sorry for him. I don't accuse him of being insincere
No. You have accuse him instead of being stupid ignorant of the explanations you know, which are largely made up and held by you alone. You accuse him of holding a ridiculous belief, which is how you describe the old earth's beliefs. And you do all of that while knowing a tiny fraction of the evidence Glen encountered on a routine basis.
I feel sorry for Glen because he faced a needless dilemma, and because he apparently remains tortured by his inability to resolve things in favor of the YEC view. If you really want to make this thread about the evidence and not some failing on Glen's part, you'd be talking about why he was wrong in specific terms instead of just making accusations that he'd lost his faith. But the problem is that you don't have any clue what you are talking abbout.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 8:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 2:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 107 of 427 (791103)
09-10-2016 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by NoNukes
09-10-2016 2:26 PM


You are totally wrong about what I'm doing on that other thread, ridiculously totally absolutely wrong. And you're wrong about the rest of your post too. But since you never understand anything I say there's no point in trying to explain it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2016 2:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 3:03 PM Faith has replied
 Message 111 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2016 5:43 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 427 (791106)
09-10-2016 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
09-10-2016 2:56 PM


Another BIG reasons to throw YEC away is honesty..
One big reason is basic honesty. After realizing that absolutely none of the Young Earth Creationists claims are supported by any evidence and that the Young Earth Creationist position is incapable of explaining anything seen in reality basic honesty should drive a person to look for answers that actually relate to reality and can explain what is actually seen.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 2:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 3:30 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 427 (791107)
09-10-2016 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
09-10-2016 3:03 PM


Re: Another BIG reasons to throw YEC away.
If I ever reached the point where I gave up on YEC explanations I certainly wouldn't go with OE explanations. More likely I'd just spend more time in the Bible and maybe live even more like a hermit than I already do. God understands things we don't and spending time in His company is far preferable to spending it in futile debate. So far there is no question of dishonesty about YEC. The biggest problem I have is dealing with a lot of annoying people who don't get it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 3:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 4:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 110 of 427 (791109)
09-10-2016 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
09-10-2016 3:30 PM


Re: Another BIG reasons to throw YEC away.
So even though you started a topic "Reasons to convert from YEC to OEC considered" you have decided to not accept Old Earth explanations regardless of their accuracy, evidential support, explanatory powers, correspondence to reality, logic or reasonableness.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 3:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 111 of 427 (791110)
09-10-2016 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
09-10-2016 2:56 PM


You are totally wrong about what I'm doing on that other thread, ridiculously totally absolutely wrong.
The entire thread is based on a premise that is totally nonsense because geology current does have an explanation for rock layers. But rather than attack the actually theory, you spend hundreds of post insisting that there was no explanation, when instead the explanation is simple. Since Stile is now essentially the only person who you are willing to discuss with at this point, Stile is forced to walk you through an obvious explanation that everyone else grasped immediately.
The evidence is available for everyone to see.
With respect to Glen, I have yet to see you point to any evidence and show where he made an error. Instead you have simple attacked him as a fool. If you have something of substance to post you'd have done so. Instead you are simply preaching YEC in a science forum rather than providing argument and evidence.
You were given a choice of putting this somewhere other than a science forum, but you chose this forum. Well guess what, arguments that Morton was wrong because he should have rejected evidence and interpretations based on his faith are not really applicable in this forum.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 2:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 8:36 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 112 of 427 (791115)
09-11-2016 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
09-10-2016 2:05 PM


Re: OE model vs YEC model
I notice an interesting admission in this post.
quote:
But there is an observable pattern that a YEC can't deny even if there is no way to explain it by the Flood: simply studying the rocks, knowing that the fossils occur in a certain order, which a Floodist could ascertain as well as anyone else, -- aren't these the ways the rocks are identified?
Faith has often claimed that the order in the fossil record is an illusion. Now she says that it is useful information. Remember that the order is very strong evidence against the Flood - and we see at least one good reason why an honest working geologist might wish to convert from YEC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 2:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 8:39 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 113 of 427 (791124)
09-11-2016 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by NoNukes
09-10-2016 5:43 PM


NN writes:
The entire thread is based on a premise that is totally nonsense because geology current does have an explanation for rock layers.
The point of the thread is to try to show that the explanation doesn't work.
But rather than attack the actually theory...
I've attacked the theory many times in the past.
... you spend hundreds of post insisting that there was no explanation, when instead the explanation is simple.
WHAT? Insisting there was no explanation? WHAT? The whole point is that there IS a standard Geo explanation for the relation between the supposed ancient time periods/environments/landscapes and the rock that is now all that is left of them, and I think that explanation collapses under investigation, although as I also said many times, it's an unwieldy argument to muster.
Since Stile is now essentially the only person who you are willing to discuss with at this point, Stile is forced to walk you through an obvious explanation that everyone else grasped immediately.
Stile began the discussion; what do you mean he's "forced?" It's his own project, not mine. And I've found over and over at EvC that when I think others aren't getting something, they aren't, but they think they are. "Grasped immediately" is self-delusion.
The evidence is available for everyone to see.
MOre hot air.
With respect to Glen, I have yet to see you point to any evidence and show where he made an error.
I've only had the opportunity to mention one or two issues before I'm buried in irrelevant arguments.
Instead you have simple attacked him as a fool.
Would you please quote me on that?
If you have something of substance to post you'd have done so. Instead you are simply preaching YEC in a science forum rather than providing argument and evidence.
I've been intending to get to his list of topics, but now it sounds like that would just be an unfair attack on the man according to you.
You were given a choice of putting this somewhere other than a science forum, but you chose this forum.
The choice I was given was Dating or Geology. Dating is a science forum too I believe, and I don't feel I know enough to debate the dating issues. They are fundamentally a geological issue anyway.
Well guess what, arguments that Morton was wrong because he should have rejected evidence and interpretations based on his faith are not really applicable in this forum.
I really have no idea what you are talking about. This thread got obnoxious, you being one of the causes, so I haven't had a chance to figure out what to do with it at all. However, the direction I want to go with it is to use his arguments against YEC and the Flood to see if they can be answered from a YEC point of view.
If you don't mind of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2016 5:43 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 114 of 427 (791125)
09-11-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
09-11-2016 3:31 AM


Re: OE model vs YEC model
Yes I believe the OE interpretation of the fossil order is an illusion. I also think there must be a reasonable interpretation of it from the Flood point of view that will eventually emerge. Meanwhile, it IS a fact that the fossils occur in a predictable order, whatever the correct interpretation of that may be, and since that is true they can be used to locate rocks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2016 3:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2016 9:22 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 09-11-2016 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 115 of 427 (791126)
09-11-2016 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
09-11-2016 8:39 AM


Re: OE model vs YEC model
quote:
Yes I believe the OE interpretation of the fossil order is an illusion.
Usually you just say that the order is an illusion. Which is a far different thing from proposing that the only reasonable explanation that we have for that order is an "illusion".
quote:
I also think there must be a reasonable interpretation of it from the Flood point of view that will eventually emerge.
I think that we can safely say that there is no realistic prospect of that occurring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 8:39 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 09-11-2016 10:43 AM PaulK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(5)
Message 116 of 427 (791127)
09-11-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
09-11-2016 9:22 AM


on a basic and perhaps insurmountable difference
in Message 114 Faith says:
quote:
Yes I believe the OE interpretation of the fossil order is an illusion. I also think there must be a reasonable interpretation of it from the Flood point of view that will eventually emerge. Meanwhile, it IS a fact that the fossils occur in a predictable order, whatever the correct interpretation of that may be, and since that is true they can be used to locate rocks.
That one statement pretty much summarizes the difference between Science and Dogma.
Modern geology (as well as astronomy, physics, chemistry and all other branches) began with the assumption of a Young Earth. However as more and more evidence accumulated that the Earth was not Young that position was abandoned.
Modern geology (as well as astronomy, physics, chemistry and all other branches) began with the assumption of a Biblical Flood. However as more and more evidence accumulated that there never was a Biblical Flood that position was abandoned.
There are things in Science that so far cannot be explained, one example mentioned in this thread are the flint nodules found in chalk deposits. In those instances Science tries to find explanations that can explain what is seen but adds a disclaimer stating that what is suggested is still just an idea and not yet firmly enough supported by evidence to call it a theory.
Dogma on the other hand does not simply state that the answer is unknown but may someday be known it continues to try to use explanations that have already been totally refuted. It is that continued assertion that things conclusively shown to be wrong explain stuff that is so different than the culture found in science. It is that need to make reality fit the dogma instead of throwing the dogma away when shown to be wrong that is the big difference.
Edited by jar, : appalin grammore that ----> than

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2016 9:22 AM PaulK has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 117 of 427 (791133)
09-11-2016 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-08-2016 3:28 PM


But this sounds like someone who never did have the YEC point of view on the Grand Canyon, rather someone who accepts the Old Earth idea that it must have taken a lot of time to carve it.
What this ignores is that Morton came to this conclusion over time. Morton was unquestionably YEC before becoming a geologist. If you've read his writings, you wouldn't misinterpret his single statement here that the grand canyon actually took a long time to carve as you do.
Of course folks other than Morton, pretty much all of whom were YEC, reached similar conclusions something like 100 years before Morton did.
And I also object to the idea that a canyon seen on seismic imaging deep underground was ever at the surface. I'd expect it to have been carved by rushing water running underground between the strata also at the end of the Flood when the strata were still soft.
In short, not because of any knowledge you have that others don't but simply because you must reject anything non YEC regardless of the strength of the inference from evidence.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 3:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 118 of 427 (791134)
09-11-2016 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
09-11-2016 8:39 AM


Re: OE model vs YEC model
Faith writes:
Meanwhile, it IS a fact that the fossils occur in a predictable order, whatever the correct interpretation of that may be, and since that is true they can be used to locate rocks.
The obvious answer is that God personally sorted the fossils so that we'd be able to find the oil.
But you seem to reject the possibility of a miracle at the same time as you reject the science.
Edited by ringo, : Spellin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 8:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 119 of 427 (791135)
09-11-2016 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-08-2016 3:28 PM


On the new topic; here are the issues.
The topic has been changed and is now "OEC vs YEC issues (yes I changed the title)".
This is somewhat different but easier to summarize.
The issue with the Young Earth Creationism position is that absolutely nothing observed in reality can be explained unless there is the conclusion that the Creator is a liar, cheat and conman or total practical joker like Coyote. Absolutely all the evidence from every branch of science, every line of inquiry, every technology used for measurements show an old Earth in a far older Universe. Unless the Creator deliberately falsified all the evidence the Earth is old.
The issue with both the YEC and OEC position is that there is no evidence pointing to the existence of a Creator. While either can be supported as a theological position, neither can be considered as Science.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 3:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 120 of 427 (791136)
09-11-2016 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
09-10-2016 8:13 AM


Well, that's certainly a new wrinkle on the Glenn Morton story. To me anyway. Now what
What a curious comment... The stuff cited was written by Morton 15 years ago, and is fairly central to his story. Dwise1 has posted portions of that story off an on here over the years.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 8:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 6:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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