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Author Topic:   Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 427 (791321)
09-14-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by NoNukes
09-14-2016 11:43 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
You've apparently missed Admin's many admonishments not to expect people to remember some argument you gave: YOU are required to repeat it. And most of yours are wacko enough that I sometimes don't even try to understand them. I've got enough other people to read here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2016 11:43 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 242 of 427 (791322)
09-14-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by NoNukes
09-14-2016 11:43 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
What alternative explanation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2016 11:43 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 243 of 427 (791323)
09-14-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
09-14-2016 10:45 AM


Well the world was once a single continent well covered with plants because of its very pleasant climate, also an abundance of animal life, along with a lot of sinful human beings.
And where is this represented in the geological record?
Geology recognizes the "Supercontinent" Pangaea.
And geology recognizes humans in Pangaea?
Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate?
Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings?
So, where did you study geology?
You do realize that the Pangea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 10:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 12:20 PM edge has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 244 of 427 (791324)
09-14-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
09-14-2016 11:33 AM


Re: Continuing with OEC Arguments: Fossil sorting
So you've got a "best' explanation which is only "best" because it is the only one you have left - you haven't a real idea of how it could even possibly work. Message 146
And an argument which is quite obviously the product of a serious failure to understand the issues as I have already explained. Message 151
Not much of a case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 3:11 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 427 (791325)
09-14-2016 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by edge
09-14-2016 11:54 AM


And geology recognizes humans in Pangaea?
It should I'm sure. But since there are strata on Pangaea clearly the Flood wiped them all out. Also, I've made the point before that the upturned strata of England, so nicely arranged as a unit, are proof that the continents didn't split in the middle of the building of the Geo Column as conventional dating says, which would have disturbed the column in the middle, which obviously didn't happen, but afterward, and that the tectonic disturbance that would have occurred at the time of the split is the reason for the uptilted strata. Just another small point against the Geo Timescale.
Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate?
Of course not. You march to a uniformitarian drummer which throws off all your interpretations of the past.
Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings?
Of course not. That might raise questions all by itself as to the reliability of geological judgments.
So, where did you study geology?
At EvC and Wikipedia and various online geology sources as well as a few books on the subject over the last fifteen or so years. Had the very best of teachers, including yourself.
You do realize that the Pangea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you?
In that case we have at least partial corroboration of what I'm saying, yes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by edge, posted 09-14-2016 11:54 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 09-14-2016 1:23 PM Faith has replied
 Message 252 by edge, posted 09-14-2016 2:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 246 of 427 (791327)
09-14-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
09-14-2016 10:47 AM


Faith writes:
Coyote writes:
The last time there was a single continent was about 175 million years ago.
Modern humans came along about 174.8 million years later.
Sorry, that's interpretation, not fact.
No, you're flat out wrong.
The dating of various things can be established and cross-checked by various methods. The results are facts.
What you are espousing is the interpretation--you are looking at facts and ignoring, misrepresenting, or misinterpreting them to fit your a priori religious belief no matter what the facts say.
We should have an "Apologetics" Forum for you, as what you are preaching certainly isn't science--its the exact opposite--and doesn't really belong in the Science Forum.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 10:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 247 of 427 (791328)
09-14-2016 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
09-14-2016 11:05 AM


Re: Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
Faith writes:
Here's another one from Glenn Morton:
He claims the Flood wasn't Global. There is one very brief answer to this that ought to satisfy someone who claims he's still a Christian: There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global. It took him a hundred years to build it, enough time to have escaped to any area that would have been spared the Flood. I don't think there's anything else to say on this subject.
Faith, there is a lot of interpretation and assumption underlying your comments.
I disagree that "There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global".
1) If the flood covered a large enough region, it would still take significant time for animals to repopulate the area, so there would still be a need to have animals handy for food.
2) many of the animals in the account were "clean" animals for sacrifice. There would also have been a need to have animals handy for sacrifice if the flood were not global.
I agree that Noah would have had time to have "escaped to any area that would have been spared the Flood". But escape was not God's only goal. Noah's task was also to be a testimony to those around him and was to provide a "type" of Christ (1 Pet 3).
FYI, Glenn Morton did lots of thinking about the Flood, and concluded that Noah's flood must correlate to the infilling of the Mediterranean, about 5 million years ago. This would make Noah and Adam Neanderthals. Very few people agree with Glenn on this.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 2:39 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 248 of 427 (791329)
09-14-2016 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
09-14-2016 12:20 PM


Faith writes:
Also, I've made the point before that the upturned strata of England, so nicely arranged as a unit, are proof that the continents didn't split in the middle of the building of the Geo Column as conventional dating says, which would have disturbed the column in the middle, which obviously didn't happen, but afterward, and that the tectonic disturbance that would have occurred at the time of the split is the reason for the uptilted strata. Just another small point against the Geo Timescale.
Weird then that England etc was separated from continental Europe by a melting glacier some 450,000 years ago.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 12:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 2:49 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 249 of 427 (791336)
09-14-2016 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by kbertsche
09-14-2016 1:19 PM


Re: Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
KB, that's all very interesting, but as with all OEC interpretations it's a lot of adjustment to worldly assumptions. Even if I can sympathize with the Christian OECs to some extent in their reasons for making such an adjustment, I'm not going to consider rewriting Christian theological history because of it, involving all that reinterpretation of what the Hebrew terms mean.
The Bible may be hard to interpret in some places but it is NOT imprecise and its interpreters going back to earliest times are NOT id*iots. The whole world has always been understood to have been entirely covered by the Flood. Reducing it to a "region" is just a sort of mealymouthed accommodation to things we are unable to understand.
What kind of "testimony" is it anyway to cause people to think the Flood was worldwide when it wasn't? Noah is a testimony to US, too, not just to the ancient world. A half-baked Flood is no testimony to modern man of Noah as a type of Christ if the entire earth was not drowned, especially considering that it's intended as a harbinger/type of the coming final Judgment. Is Jesus coming to judge and reign over only a "region" of Creation?
In the "region" that survived the Flood were there still human beings alive? What kind of testimony could that possibly be? Were there animals still alive after scripture tells us that everything that has breath perished?
I'm sure Morton is completely sincere and has excellent reasons for what he thinks, but he must certainly be wrong. I'd much rather take Kurt Wise's position that all the evidence is against YEC but I'm still going to be a YEC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by kbertsche, posted 09-14-2016 1:19 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by edge, posted 09-14-2016 2:56 PM Faith has replied
 Message 267 by Taq, posted 09-14-2016 4:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 427 (791338)
09-14-2016 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Faith
09-14-2016 11:47 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
What alternative explanation?
This chain of posts has become idiotic. If by saying so, I've earned a suspension then I'll gladly take it now. But your refusal to follow a chain of two/three posts two times in a row is beyond reasonable.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12997
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 251 of 427 (791339)
09-14-2016 2:47 PM


I need to clarify an earlier moderator request. This is from Faith's Message 241 in reply to NoNukes:
Faith in Message 241 writes:
You've apparently missed Admin's many admonishments not to expect people to remember some argument you gave: YOU are required to repeat it.
The request was to repeat arguments from earlier stages of the discussion or from earlier threads, and not say things like, "I explained that once before," or "I already proved that," or "This was already shown wrong," or "We've been over this already," or to offer something abbreviated or incomplete. The rationale I've always offered is that explanations or arguments or evidence are often presented before some necessary common ground has been established or before some necessary information has been presented. If the issue is revisited in the future then it is not reasonable to expect old details to be remembered.
This is not to say that entire long messages must be cut-n-pasted into new messages. Do what makes sense, like a summarized argument with a link. The desire is to eliminate arguments that are all too brief to serve their purpose.
But it is reasonable to expect people to keep the details of recent discussion in mind. There should be no need to clutter threads with repeats from the past few days.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 2:56 PM Admin has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 252 of 427 (791340)
09-14-2016 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
09-14-2016 12:20 PM


And geology recognizes humans in Pangaea?
It should I'm sure. But since there are strata on Pangaea clearly the Flood wiped them all out.
Ah...
So you can't document humans living on Pangaea.
It's not even an interpretation, it's a wish, right?
Also, I've made the point before that the upturned strata of England, so nicely arranged as a unit, are proof that the continents didn't split in the middle of the building of the Geo Column as conventional dating says, which would have disturbed the column in the middle, which obviously didn't happen, but afterward, and that the tectonic disturbance that would have occurred at the time of the split is the reason for the uptilted strata.
Yes, they are nicely layered and arranged because there was little tectonic disturbance there. It's kind of like living in Iowa during the early Paleozoic and saying, "Appalachian Mountains? What Appalachian Mountans?"
Just another small point against the Geo Timescale.
If it were true, yes.
Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate?
Of course not. You march to a uniformitarian drummer which throws off all your interpretations of the past.
So, you cannot document that part of your statement, either.
Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings?
Of course not. That might raise questions all by itself as to the reliability of geological judgments.
Ah, I see. So this had nothing to do with the question. Why did you bring it up then?
You are not getting the point. I asked you to document the things you were saying but you can't seem to give us any more than "Pangaea existed".
I hardly call that pertinent evidence supporting your story.
So, where did you study geology?
At EvC and Wikipedia and various online geology sources as well as a few books on the subject over the last fifteen or so years. Had the very best of teachers, including yourself.
That's what I thought. You have no training and certainly no experience in the field. Your understanding is based on myth.
You do realize that the Pangaea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you?
In that case we have at least partial corroboration of what I'm saying, yes?
Not since it records a landscape in the middle of your biblical flood, along with the fact that there were previous supercontinents as well.
Are you just cherry-picking continents now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 12:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 2:53 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 253 of 427 (791341)
09-14-2016 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Tangle
09-14-2016 1:23 PM


Of course I just roll my eyes at the date, but I have no reason to dispute the glacier interpretation in itself. But what on earth do you think it proves anyway? Pangaea supposedly broke up in the middle of the formation of the geological column, but there is no sign of what must have been a big disturbance to the strata at the midpoint of the column, when North America separated from Europe and Africa; it's all quite nicely arranged like slices of toast to be offered to guests; from which I conclude that the tectonic upheaval occurred after all the strata were laid down, meaning after the Flood. SOON after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 09-14-2016 1:23 PM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 254 of 427 (791342)
09-14-2016 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
09-14-2016 11:43 AM


Re: Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
Dang it, NN, I'm not saying he isn't a Christian,
Here is exactly what you said when you posted your nonsense:
There is one very brief answer to this that ought to satisfy someone who claims he's still a Christian: There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global.
Your answer, which requires acceptance of your YEC beliefs is not satisfactory to any Christian who does not accept them, be that person Morton, myself, GDR, etc. Your statement is nonsense. Your insistence that such folks are not Christian is non Biblical.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by Admin, : Fix second quote. It was too brief for me to make sense of the response, so I filled it out.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 427 (791344)
09-14-2016 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by edge
09-14-2016 2:49 PM


Your understanding is based on myth.
All those bona fide geological sources are myth? Including yourself? Nice of you to admit it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by edge, posted 09-14-2016 2:49 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
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