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Author | Topic: Why did we stop inventing gods? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
I suppose that technically you have a point...though I wish you would learn how to format. [qs ]insert message here [/ qs]
You and jar think similarly...even though jar claims to be a believer and you ...well...you believe that God is a creation of the human mind. Am I close? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 530 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Phat
Thanks for the point. I tried that [qs ] and ended with [qs ] and no quote. Perhaps an update on the programming would be handy. "you believe that God is a creation of the human mind. Am I close?" Yes. That is not a new idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA If a god created mankind, and most people are in god's mental image, theists have to explain why they think mankind is so flawed that we had to kill a Jesus type form of god to save us from our creators wrath, when scriptures say the god created us all perfect. Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, If the supernatural and fantasy gods are not real then there is only one other source that could create the concept of god and that is man. Quite easy to understand given Jung and Freud's Father Complex. Our instinctive guide to becoming the fittest of our species. RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2559 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
the ending quote tag needs a slash - /qs in between the brackets (no spaces)
dBCodes Help
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 530 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
the ending quote tag needs a slash Thanks. But it did not pick up your name. RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given. Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given. Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
[qs=GIA]Thanks. But it did not pick up your name.[/qs]
GIA writes: Thanks. But it did not pick up your name. It does if you do it right.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 530 days) Posts: 1676 Joined:
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AZPaul3 writes: It does if you do it right. Thanks. What a pain in the rump though. RegardsDL
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
jar writes: I believe He saw himself as Gods son. I believe he knew his Father intimately.
I see no evidence that Jesus saw himself as God. He did see himself as a person carrying a message he thought was from God.jar writes: I know what you have said. You emphasize Jesus humanity because you feel that a God dying is no big deal and is not a sacrifice. The "was made man" part of the creed supports your position--but does not answer the question as to what the relationship was between the Creator of all seen and unseen and His one and only son. Yes, it is true that we all can follow Jesus in that we all can go and do for the least of these...you never seem to have had a problem with the second part of the greatest commandment. Where you stumble is in not being able to conceive of the Creator of all seen and unseen having a personal relationship with you---in that He listens to your prayers and will help you with whatever you ask---provided it conforms communion-wise with His will. A Father listens to the needs of His son(or daughter) and may not always buy them ice cream or fix their problems but will give them the strength to make it. Again, here is where we disagree. You guys will say that I have an idea of God the father as a disneyland dad...one who magically makes my challenges in life easier. This all stems from our differing ideas concerning the role of a Father. In fact I believe the Nicene Creed supports my position. GOD is not simply some unknowable complete abstract. I doubt we will ever agree because you do not respect the Gospel of John, in my opinion. Granted you can provide some evidence as to its authorship but I feel that when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road, you go with human evidence over the Creed. I go with the Creed. Granted I want the truth to be the way I felt that my own Father was towards me. Perhaps your whole responsibility kick and unknowable God stem from the fact that your Father was somewhat distant and would not rescue you. I dunno...thats personal. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
If the supernatural and fantasy gods are not real then there is only one other source that could create the concept of god and that is man. Quite easy to understand given Jung and Freud's Father Complex. Our instinctive guide to becoming the fittest of our species. One side wants a Father who rescues us from our problems. The other side wants us to tough it up as we are all spiritual orphans who need to grow and fix our own problems. And you still never get past the idea of a "genocidal son murdering God." The whole point is that you would have been the victim otherwise. Does that make you angry at God? My whole abstract is based on several preconceptions. Both you and jar preach to the atheists in that jar says we are responsible for the future rather than God and you say that the God in us---(who you believe is us...) can make a better future. Both of you agree that the way God is portrayed in traditional Christianity is harmful.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I believe He saw himself as Gods son. I believe he knew his Father intimately. You can believe whatever you like. Is there some evidence for that belief; can you explain how it might be possible to have an intimate relationship with God?
Phat writes: Where you stumble is in not being able to conceive of the Creator of all seen and unseen having a personal relationship with you---in that He listens to your prayers and will help you with whatever you ask---provided it conforms communion-wise with His will. I will go further and state I cannot even figure out what that word salad means.
Phat writes: GOD is not simply some unknowable complete abstract. Great. So how do you actually test to see if what you believe really is fact?
Phat writes: I doubt we will ever agree because you do not respect the Gospel of John, in my opinion. Granted you can provide some evidence as to its authorship but I feel that when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road, you go with human evidence over the Creed. The Gospel of John and the various Creeds are entirely different critters and as such must be treated differently; just as the Gospel of John is an entirely different critter than the Synoptic Gospels and so must be treated differently.
Phat writes: Granted I want the truth to be the way I felt that my own Father was towards me. And that really is the difference in our opinions. I have no desire for the truth to be what I want, rather I want to know what the truth is regardless of my personal desires.
Phat writes: Perhaps your whole responsibility kick and unknowable God stem from the fact that your Father was somewhat distant and would not rescue you. And there you go just making shit up again in the hope it meets your needs.
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ringo Member (Idle past 668 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The OTHER other side wants a Father to rescue us from our problems but doesn't want to sit by the side of the road indefinitely waiting for Him to come and fix our flat tire.
One side wants a Father who rescues us from our problems. The other side wants us to tough it up as we are all spiritual orphans who need to grow and fix our own problems.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 530 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Phat writes: I believe He saw himself as Gods son. I believe he knew his Father intimately. How can a son know his father intimately when that father is a deadbeat dad that abandoned him before birth? Or is that not the way you see dads that disappear out of their son's lives? RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 530 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Phat writes: One side wants a Father who rescues us from our problems. The other side wants us to tough it up as we are all spiritual orphans who need to grow and fix our own problems.
If there is a Father with his famous plan, then he creates the problem. Which side are you on?
Phat writes: And you still never get past the idea of a "genocidal son murdering God." Because that view has yet to be refuted. Are you up to trying to do so?
Phat writes: The whole point is that you would have been the victim otherwise. Does that make you angry at God? Your first point is unqualified and un-knowable and I see it as a lie. If true, then sure I would be angry with your creator god as being a created entity, all I could ever do is follow the nature he put into me. To punish anyone for being exactly as he created would make your god and immoral prick. RegardsDL
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: Then
quote: How do you deal with Islamic Gnostics like the Alawites of Syria then? Google Google They hold that Jesus is divine (i.e. God). I don't see any evidence to back up your claims. That is true of both modern day gnostics and the older (dead) ones in the historical reports and archaeology. (Also, when do you think gnosticism started? How did it get started? What was the flame that flickered it? What king of gnosis/Gnosis was the forger of the Pastoral Epistles referring to?)
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: But what about this evidence?
quote: That was a scholarly work that described Alawites as modern day gnostics. Here is a Reuters piece. There is also a good New York Times piece. Here is the link.Syria's Ruling Alawite Sect - The New York Times But here is Reuters journalism, which I will quote.
quote: You would have to demonstrate that the early Christian Gnostic sects were originally of a view that Jesus was not divine. But look at the modern day gnostics and their views.
quote: The 1st century gnostic Jewish Christians (Elkesaites) held views similar to these. They said Melchizedek was reincarnated as Jesus. Did they see Jesus as divine? I think so, but perhaps not. The Ebionites/Nazarenes (Jewish Christian followers of James the brother of Jesus, who fundamentalist protestant Paul Maier jr. admits that Jesus appointed to be the head of the apostles before his death. A & E had a documentary on Christianity and said both scripture and tradition agree that James was made the head of the church and Peter was only the leader of the apostles during Jesus' lifetime, but James was the appointed head by Jesus and was after his death.) did seem to have a Gospel of Matthew that lacked the first 2 chapters, so perhaps they rejected the divinity? (Side note, I have had some real interesting conversations with multiple Yazidis (refugees from Syria and Iraq) here in Lincoln on many of these issues, but they are an OLD religion, not to be confused with Gnostics of any type) Do you have any evidence for your claims?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Here is link to documentary showing James is leader of church. A&E describes it as a fact and Paul Maier is interesting as he points out that the leader of the early church was not Simon Peter as you "might expect".
https://www.amazon.com/...First-1000-Years-New/dp/B00069IAMU It can be viewed on YouTube actually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKOoPcHxPhU The first 20 minutes or so will get around to talking about James. It drops off rather abruptly, however, and the documentary would better be called a history of European Christianity. No coverage of the Nazarenes/Ebionites, Persian Christians, Semitic Christians. etc. (except persecution of Syrians and Palestiniants around the time of the Council of Chalcedon in around 451 A.D.) But the James issue could be important as to early views that came to be called gnostic. There were pure European authored letters that made their way into today's Bibles (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Hebrews, Gospel of John) and claimed to be authored by famous Jewish Christians. Scholars claim they can't identify the opponents of "Paul" that are criticized in the Pastoral Epistles (1 Timothy,2 Timothy, Titus). I might post my theories if you are interested. Roman Catholics made up the Peter/Pope/Bishop issue to counter (and smother) the Nazarenes/Ebionites and James the Just issue. Protestants (like Maier) only mention the James issue as a convenient way to attack Catholics IMO. Then they drop the implications quickly. No mention of the Ebionites/Nararense/Elkesaites. The Elkesaites are the earliest recorded gnostic group btw. Also, here is some stuff from Maier when I put his name and Jame Just into googles engine. Google Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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