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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 286 of 591 (791988)
09-29-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by GDR
09-29-2016 11:17 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
GDR writes:
That's nonsense jar. It spread initially by those without power at all and then there was Paul who gave up power to spread the message often from prison. If it was such a fringe group then why were the Romans so concerned about it that they were having them executed , and if it was such small group how did it even manage to spread to Rome in the first place?
I usually just kinda laugh when that nonsense comes up. Actually even before Constantine Christianity was tolerated by Rome. It was only when the Christians made it an issue, at the times when Roman was going through their Emperor rotation period with some down right crazy tyrants that Christianity was outlawed, far less than any 300 year period. And yes, Roman did go in for blood sports to keep the masses happy, but it was not just Christians that were used.
Christianity, the tiny sects that were early Christianity were spread by individual marketers like Paul but it was a loose organization of a few small bands of folk in a few locations.
GDR writes:
You call yourself a Christian but i asked you before to name anything that you believe that differentiates you from any theist who believes in a god that is good. Actually from what I have read that you have written, it seems to me that you are closest to being a Buddhist who attends a Christian church.
And of course I have answered you many, many times. I explained that I am a Cradle Creedal Christian and a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian and believe in those statements of belief outlined in the Creeds. That distinguishes me from being a Buddhist.
But I also understand that belief and fact are not synonymous. I m also pretty sure that GOD, not that caricature we worship but the real thing will not be anything like what we talk about and not "good". GOD, if GOD really exists will be complete, not just good or bad or male or female. Complete.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by GDR, posted 09-29-2016 11:17 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by GDR, posted 09-29-2016 12:38 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 287 of 591 (791989)
09-29-2016 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
09-29-2016 12:21 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
Phat writes:
what makes you think it was a business?
You're taking words like "marketing" and "customer" too literally. Religion may not (always) be a cash-for-service transaction but stop and think: What really is the difference between "sharing your testimony" and selling a vacuum cleaner?
Phat writes:
There appears to be little evidence that Paul was in any way in it for growing a business. He felt led to spread the good news of the Gospels to the non Jew.
He was in it for growing an organization, or a movement wasn't he? Doesn't the Red Cross market itself? Doesn't the YMCA market itself? Doesn't the Ku Klux Klan market itself? Even if the goal isn't cash, it's still marketing.
Phat writes:
Perhaps it would be the same as if we sought to spread the message of good works and personal accountability to every soul on earth.
We don't need to spread that message. It's innate. What we need to spread is the message that religion shouldn't prevent us from doing the right thing. That was Jesus' message to the Pharisees: Follow the spirit of the law instead of the letter; do the right thing even on the Sabbath.
Phat writes:
What is the difference between a business and free shareware?
Customer service. What Microsoft is selling isn't really the software itself; it's tips on how to get around the bugs in the software.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 09-29-2016 12:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 288 of 591 (791992)
09-29-2016 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
09-29-2016 11:44 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
jar writes:
Christianity, the tiny sects that were early Christianity were spread by individual marketers like Paul but it was a loose organization of a few small bands of folk in a few locations.
Here is a web site for atheists that agrees that by 300 AD Christians numbered between 5 and 8 million.
Luke Muehlhauser
jar writes:
And of course I have answered you many, many times. I explained that I am a Cradle Creedal Christian and a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian and believe in those statements of belief outlined in the Creeds. That distinguishes me from being a Buddhist.
In other threads you have agreed that you don't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus and see him more as a prophet as do Jews and Muslims.
jar writes:
But I also understand that belief and fact are not synonymous. I m also pretty sure that GOD, not that caricature we worship but the real thing will not be anything like what we talk about and not "good". GOD, if GOD really exists will be complete, not just good or bad or male or female. Complete.
All religions are human attempts to ascertain the nature of a divine power. The point of Christianity is that Jesus perfectly embodied that nature so that we are able to understand that nature. It obviously has nothing to do with gender. Goodness is only what we generally understand it to be, which is loving, kind, just etc.
As for being complete, that's just jargon that tells us nothing.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 11:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 10:01 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 289 of 591 (791997)
09-29-2016 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by GDR
09-29-2016 12:38 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
GDR writes:
Here is a web site for atheists that agrees that by 300 AD Christians numbered between 5 and 8 million.
Which even if correct (and I cannot imagine how any such figures might be determined) it is still not a really significant number.
GDR writes:
In other threads you have agreed that you don't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus and see him more as a prophet as do Jews and Muslims.
No, I have said it does not matter whether or not there was a physical resurrection. The lesson I believe we are supposed to learn would be the same.
GDR writes:
All religions are human attempts to ascertain the nature of a divine power. The point of Christianity is that Jesus perfectly embodied that nature so that we are able to understand that nature. It obviously has nothing to do with gender. Goodness is only what we generally understand it to be, which is loving, kind, just etc.
As for being complete, that's just jargon that tells us nothing.
Kinda. All religions are human attempts to create a system for controlling populations. The point is that the Jesus mythos perfectly fits the various messages that Christians want to promulgate. But there is no universal portraiture or caricature of Jesus. What You post is entirely different than what Faith posts or Phat posts or I post.
And yes, I believe we are all clueless and must be clueless about what GOD might really be and that all the Gods we can discuss are just human creations.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by GDR, posted 09-29-2016 12:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by GDR, posted 09-30-2016 7:53 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 290 of 591 (792037)
09-30-2016 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
09-29-2016 10:01 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
jar writes:
Which even if correct (and I cannot imagine how any such figures might be determined) it is still not a really significant number.
Not bad for a religion whose members were sporadically persecuted to the point of death.
jar writes:
No, I have said it does not matter whether or not there was a physical resurrection. The lesson I believe we are supposed to learn would be the same.
...which is the same message you can get from Buddah or Gandhi or numerous others. Why waste your time at church. Why not join Rotary and do all sorts of good works there without having to pay for building, clergy etc.
The point is that you don't believe anything particular to the Christian church. You are a culturally Christian. You say that you are a "Cradle Creedal Christian and a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian". First off your beliefs do not fit the creeds. Things like "born of a virgin" and "rose again" aren't consistent with your beliefs. You say that you are a cradle Christian which I assumes means born into a Christian culture and maybe with Christian parents. I was born in a hospital which does not make me a doctor. There are many on this forum who were raised Christian and are now atheists or agnostics.
jar writes:
Kinda. All religions are human attempts to create a system for controlling populations. The point is that the Jesus mythos perfectly fits the various messages that Christians want to promulgate. But there is no universal portraiture or caricature of Jesus. What You post is entirely different than what Faith posts or Phat posts or I post.
Maybe you see it that way and often you are right, but I'd suggest that there are many who adhere to a religion simply because they believe it to be true and that it is the right thing for the world. I don't see any of the characters such as Paul in the NT benefiting from what they were doing, or that they were controlling anyone.
jar writes:
And yes, I believe we are all clueless and must be clueless about what GOD might really be and that all the Gods we can discuss are just human creations.
The major point of Christianity is that we can see the true nature of God in the person of Jesus Christ. Sure religions are human creations but that doesn't mean that they got it completely wrong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 10:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 09-30-2016 9:40 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 591 (792038)
09-30-2016 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by GDR
09-30-2016 7:53 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
GDR writes:
The point is that you don't believe anything particular to the Christian church. You are a culturally Christian. You say that you are a "Cradle Creedal Christian and a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian". First off your beliefs do not fit the creeds. Things like "born of a virgin" and "rose again" aren't consistent with your beliefs. You say that you are a cradle Christian which I assumes means born into a Christian culture and maybe with Christian parents. I was born in a hospital which does not make me a doctor. There are many on this forum who were raised Christian and are now atheists or agnostics.
And you keep making assertions that simply show you are incapable of reading or understanding at best and incapable of even making a basic analogy.
There was a thread GDR on what made a true Christian and the result was the only possible way to tell a true Christian was to ask them if they were a Christian.
Try actually dealing with YOUR beliefs and stop misrepresenting what I believe.
GDR writes:
The major point of Christianity is that we can see the true nature of God in the person of Jesus Christ. Sure religions are human creations but that doesn't mean that they got it completely wrong.
More word salad and more misrepresentation. "The major point of Christianity is that we can see the true nature of God in the person of Jesus Christ. " is a great example of lots of words with absolutely no content or meaning.
I have never said any religion got it completely wrong. I have said I doubt any religion was the RIGHT one.
I have said that GOD if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods or gods we can describe or talk about and that includes Jesus.
We build religions and Gods to suit our cultures, eras, mythos.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by GDR, posted 09-30-2016 7:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2016 12:06 AM jar has replied
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 10-01-2016 10:51 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 591 (792039)
10-01-2016 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by jar
09-30-2016 9:40 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
There was a thread GDR on what made a true Christian and the result was the only possible way to tell a true Christian was to ask them if they were a Christian.
Your statement is a jar-centric summary of that thread. You did indeed reach that conclusion, but I'm not sure you managed to convince the other participants that your reasoning was correct. There were in fact, a number of proposed definitions given in that thread.
It is true that your definition does yield an easy answer and that some of the other given definitions were not easy to apply or to interpret. But that ease and simplicity is not a guarantee that your definition is correct.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 09-30-2016 9:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 10-01-2016 8:06 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 591 (792041)
10-01-2016 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by NoNukes
10-01-2016 12:06 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
NoNukes writes:
Your statement is a jar-centric summary of that thread. You did indeed reach that conclusion, but I'm not sure you managed to convince the other participants that your reasoning was correct. There were in fact, a number of proposed definitions given in that thread.
It is true that your definition does yield an easy answer and that some of the other given definitions were not easy to apply or to interpret. But that ease and simplicity is not a guarantee that your definition is correct.
That is great support for the very point I have been making. There was not just a number of different proposed definitions but rather no real agreement as to any single definition. The answer to who is a real Christian depends solely on what the respondent thinks is a real Christian with the only commonality being that they will tell you that THEY are a real Christian.
I'm not so sure my response is jar centric as much as simply realistic. Faith will tell you that she is a Christian but the Pope is the anti-christ. The Pope will tell you that he is a Christian. GDR will tell you that he is a Christian yet also say that I am not a Christian. I believe they all all Christians and I will tell you that I am a Christian.
There really is a pattern with the only commonality to identify who is a Christian being to ask the person.
If we ask the person if someone else is a Christian we get a variety of answers.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2016 12:06 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2016 5:15 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 294 of 591 (792042)
10-01-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by jar
09-30-2016 9:40 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
jar writes:
There was a thread GDR on what made a true Christian and the result was the only possible way to tell a true Christian was to ask them if they were a Christian.
Sure, and I'm fine with calling you a Christian. You have grown up in a Christian society and have always attended a Christian church. (That is what I gather from what you have said and you can correct me if I'm wrong.) However at the same time your beliefs are consistent with a moderate Muslim, or even someone who would call themselves agnostic. Your beliefs themselves though are not anything that would define you as Christian, from what I can understand from what I have read that you have written on this forum.
I don't see why you have a problem with being called a cultural Christian.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 09-30-2016 9:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 10-01-2016 1:17 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 295 of 591 (792043)
10-01-2016 11:00 AM


So much for the revealed truth......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 296 of 591 (792045)
10-01-2016 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by GDR
10-01-2016 10:51 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
GDR writes:
However at the same time your beliefs are consistent with a moderate Muslim, or even someone who would call themselves agnostic. Your beliefs themselves though are not anything that would define you as Christian, from what I can understand from what I have read that you have written on this forum.
But yet again you are simply misrepresenting what I believe.
Since you are obviously so bad at that why do you continue trying?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 10-01-2016 10:51 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by GDR, posted 10-01-2016 4:02 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 297 of 591 (792048)
10-01-2016 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by jar
10-01-2016 1:17 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
Well tell me where I'm wrong then.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 10-01-2016 1:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by jar, posted 10-01-2016 7:52 PM GDR has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 591 (792049)
10-01-2016 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by jar
10-01-2016 8:06 AM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
That is great support for the very point I have been making. There was not just a number of different proposed definitions but rather no real agreement as to any single definition.
There is no complete agreement on what constitutes beauty either. That does not mean that any of us are going to accept the other person's definition or that we are going to accept someone else telling us that they are beautiful.
'm not so sure my response is jar centric as much as simply realistic. Faith will tell you that she is a Christian but the Pope is the anti-christ. The Pope will tell you that he is a Christian. GDR will tell you that he is a Christian yet also say that I am not a Christian. I believe they all all Christians and I will tell you that I am a Christian.
One or more of those purported definitions is simply wrong. Besides that, I don't know what would be more 'jar centric' than a statement of what you believe. I accept that a useful definition is hard to pin down. But if Christian simply means a person who makes the claim to be Christian, then there isn't much use for the term.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 10-01-2016 8:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 10-01-2016 7:50 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 299 of 591 (792050)
10-01-2016 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by NoNukes
10-01-2016 5:15 PM


Re: Inter-Office-Memos
NoNukes writes:
There is no complete agreement on what constitutes beauty either. That does not mean that any of us are going to accept the other person's definition or that we are going to accept someone else telling us that they are beautiful.
That's fine nor did I say anything like that. As I pointed out in the very message you are replying to:
quote:
Faith will tell you that she is a Christian but the Pope is the anti-christ. The Pope will tell you that he is a Christian. GDR will tell you that he is a Christian yet also say that I am not a Christian. I believe they all all Christians and I will tell you that I am a Christian.
There really is a pattern with the only commonality to identify who is a Christian being to ask the person.
You, like Faith are free to decide someone is not beautiful even though they say they are.
I cannot dictate YOUR beliefs, however I still contend that there is no way to determine if a Christian is a Christian better than asking them if they are a Christian.
NoNukes writes:
One or more of those purported definitions is simply wrong. Besides that, I don't know what would be more 'jar centric' than a statement of what you believe. I accept that a useful definition is hard to pin down. But if Christian simply means a person who makes the claim to be Christian, then there isn't much use for the term.
I tend to agree that there isn't much use for the term Christian beyond determining organizational membership.
Frankly if you look at any of the characteristics that can be objectively measure there is nothing that sets Christians apart from any other demographic. They do not behave uniformly, dress uniformly, eat the same foods, live in the same neighborhood, drive the same car, subscribe to a set of common beliefs...

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2016 5:15 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 300 of 591 (792051)
10-01-2016 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by GDR
10-01-2016 4:02 PM


repeating old material
GDR writes:
Well tell me where I'm wrong then.
As I have said, I am a cradle Creedal Christian, I subscribe to those statements of Faith outlined in the Nicene Creed. I believe they are true; but I also understand that I could well be wrong and believe it is really unimportant whether they are factual or not.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by GDR, posted 10-01-2016 4:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Tangle, posted 10-02-2016 3:26 AM jar has replied
 Message 314 by GDR, posted 10-02-2016 8:23 PM jar has replied
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 10-02-2016 9:44 PM jar has not replied

  
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