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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 316 of 591 (792073)
10-03-2016 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by NoNukes
10-02-2016 7:53 PM


Re: repeating old material
NN writes:
Right. But as I pointed out, that creed does not put the Catholic Church as the authority for remission of sins.
I suspect that Catholics would disagree with you - their priests profess to be able to do it and I'm not aware that Protestants make that claim. But I accept the big 'C' and little 'c' distinction in the creed.
But that is not the point, Jar says he believes the creed but doesn't think it matters whether it's true or not. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like something you could get yourself burned alive for a few centuries ago.
He also doesn't believe in the resurrection - which is a major part of the Christian belief system and the creed. He also says this:
Jar writes:
I see Christianity as the path I have chosen to follow but also understand that the Map is not the Territory. It is not the only path and certainly not the "True" path or even the "Divine" path, but rather the path I am on.
I don't see anywhere in the creed that says that it might not be the truth or the only path. In fact rather the opposite.
We believe [...] In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Standard pick-and-mix Christianity.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2016 7:53 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 317 of 591 (792074)
10-03-2016 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Tangle
10-02-2016 4:40 PM


First Council of Constantinople (381)
Lets break the Creed down sentence by sentence and discuss it.
1) We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
In other words, there is One God and humans didnt make Him up. Critics argue that there is no evidence...oh well
2) And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (ons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made;
Thus Jesus was also before time, creation, reality as is God. Jesus is in essence Gods human character displayed. (Though some Christians disagree)
3) who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
jar loves the "was made man" part...whereas most other Christians are more impressed with the divinity than the humanity...im somewhat in the middle.
4) he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
This is very important to my chapter of club christian. The death, burial, and resurrection contain the power of creation and salvation. jar thinks the life of the human prophet was the lesson...showing us all how to be responsible and help others. What do you think, Tangle? Apart from not believing any of this stuff...do you believe that Jesus as a character in the stories is important for being human or for being God?
5)from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead. ; whose kingdom shall have no end.
Is the second coming important to anyone? It gives me hope that no matter how bad things get, God will fix them.
Critics may say it is a problem because many Christians do not accept personal responsibility for making earth a better place and are just waiting for the bus to take them out.
6) And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
The presence of God ...the helper...the comforter...critics call Him the spook. the woo. the fairytale magic. I call Him life. Love. Reality.
7) In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
In theory all Christians should agree. All those whom God has chosen should be in one accord. Who knows, Tangle...maybe you are included in that group even if you dont believe a word of it...
Critics say a God who picks and chooses is evil. I maintain that it is we who chose. God merely knew what we would choose before we did...
Critics say that makes God evil. I don't buy their arguments. Besides...if i am right it is irrelevant what they complain about. again...reality prevails.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 10-02-2016 4:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 4:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 319 by Pressie, posted 10-03-2016 7:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 318 of 591 (792075)
10-03-2016 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Phat
10-03-2016 4:21 AM


Re: First Council of Constantinople (381)
Phat writes:
What do you think, Tangle? Apart from not believing any of this stuff...do you believe that Jesus as a character in the stories is important for being human or for being God?
As I believe it's all a total fabrication, whatever point you're trying to make is mute isn't it?
But as a story and a code for life, its core message of 'do as you would be done by' is as good as anything ever written. (Though it's common to pretty much all religions). All the rest is twaddle.
In theory all Christians should agree.
But in practice they don't - hence the 30,000 different sects. You all believe something different almost down to a person.
All those whom God has chosen should be in one accord. Who knows, Tangle...maybe you are included in that group even if you dont believe a word of it...
I never know what to make of this sort of stuff - it's like being told that I'm being prayed for. All I can do is shake my head in wonder at the silliness of it.
I lead a decent life according to my society's principles. That's all that's required of anyone. If that makes me eligible to join the choir invisible fine, if not stuff it. I'm not going to gibber in front of a child molester and con man in a dress just in case.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 10-03-2016 4:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 319 of 591 (792079)
10-03-2016 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Phat
10-03-2016 4:21 AM


Re: First Council of Constantinople (381)
Yes, let's start.
1) We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
In other words, that God is supposed to have made sin and the Devil or Satan or whatever and Hell, too. Everything.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 10-03-2016 4:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 10-03-2016 11:02 AM Pressie has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 320 of 591 (792080)
10-03-2016 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by GDR
10-02-2016 8:23 PM


on Jesus
GDR writes:
If Jesus is simply a man, (as I recall you saying), who lived and died like anyone else never to be seen again, then the Gospel stories aren't good news only good advice. On top of that, as I have said before, it shows Jesus as being delusional, with the idea that He could replace the Temple by forgiving sins, and saying essentially that He was embodying Yahweh's return to His people. Christianity is the belief that Jesus got it right and this belief is vindicated by God with the resurrection.
Again, you still are misrepresenting my position.
Let me try again.
What I have said is that Jesus while living here on the earth among us was fully human. Not part human/part god but purely and totally and only human.
What I have said is that I see no real sacrifice if it is a God dying, a God being resurrected, a God ascending but the idea of a God becoming simply, fully, completely human, being born as a human child unable to focus his eyes, to feed himself, to control his bowels to even turn over by himself; becoming simply, fully, completely human with no knowledge, having to learn how to think, how to speak, how to get along with others, how to earn a living, how to put on clothes; becoming simply, fully, completely human suffering from bugs, fleas, rash, pain, hunger, doubt, fear, confusion; becoming simply, fully, completely human being whipped, sentenced to die, nailed to a cross with no assurance of resurrection other than human faith; that is a real sacrifice.
What Jesus was before his birth or after the resurrection is a different issue. I believe that Jesus was God before his birth and after the resurrection but again, I really don't think that is an important part of the narrative.
It is Jesus life that tells us how to behave.
It is Jesus the simply, fully, completely human man that is resurrected that tells humans there can be life after death.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by GDR, posted 10-02-2016 8:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 1:56 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 321 of 591 (792082)
10-03-2016 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Tangle
10-02-2016 3:15 PM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:
I admit that I leapt to the assumption that you believed the Catholic version which obliges you to also believe that only the one church can remit sins which excludes the majority of the world's population from a pleasant afterlife.
The Nicene Creed certainly evolved over time but there is not a Roman Catholic version and a Protestant version. The catholic in that Creed refers to universality.
And yes, the Nicene Creed does state what Creedal Christians should believe.
But there are also non-creedal Christians, Unitarian Christians as an example. There are also many other Creeds and Statements of Faith that apply within the framework of various Christian sects.
Nor does it exclude the majority of the world's population from a pleasant afterlife.
Again, this is actually covered in both the Old and New Testament in several forms and many places and recognized by many of the world's major Christian chapters.
Although, unlike the UK, there is no State Church in the US, we do have a National Cathedral located in Washington Dc. It is an Episcopal Church. It also has as it's most basic tenet that it should be a place of worship for all people. Not just Episcopalians, not just the Church of England, not just Protestants, not just Trinitarians, not just Christians but all people. They hold service there under other faiths as well, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist. The movement is ecumenical.
The basis for this position lies in the many examples in both the Old and New Testaments of the house of worship for all peoples and on a passage that IMHO is often misapplied from Luke 4.
quote:
Luke 4:22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. Isn’t this Joseph’s son? they asked.
23 Jesus said to them, Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’
24 Truly I tell you, he continued, no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy[g] in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansedonly Naaman the Syrian.
28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.
As most often marketed today the emphasis is placed on the "no prophet is accepted in his hometown." passage when again IMHO the important part is what follows: "25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansedonly Naaman the Syrian.
In the latter passage Jesus is telling an audience of the "Chosen People" that God often chooses outside the "Chosen People" and that in God's eyes they are not more special than the non-Hebrews.
No wonder the audience reacted as they did. Today is not much different. When someone suggests that Christians may not be the "Chosen People" we see a similar reaction.
Tangle writes:
And then there's the fussiness over the resurrection which you prefer to finesse.....
Again, I need a clue just what you seem to think is the fussiness over the resurrection which you prefer to finesse before I can respond.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Tangle, posted 10-02-2016 3:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 9:15 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 322 of 591 (792085)
10-03-2016 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by jar
10-03-2016 8:50 AM


Re: repeating old material
Jar writes:
And yes, the Nicene Creed does state what Creedal Christians should believe.
This is tautology.
But there are also non-creedal Christians, Unitarian Christians as an example. There are also many other Creeds and Statements of Faith that apply within the framework of various Christian sects.
There appears to be as many Christian beliefs as there are Christians. I always found my mother's beliefs amusing - believed the lot except the bit about the devil. But we're talking about the creed.
Nor does it exclude the majority of the world's population from a pleasant afterlife.
I'd say it does. Certainly many variants of 'credal christians' say that.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
The whole intent of the creed is to claim the true god and the way to heaven through it. I'm not interested in the bible here - just the creed.
Again, I need a clue just what you seem to think is the fussiness over the resurrection which you prefer to finesse before I can respond.
You say you don't believe in the ressurrection, the creed says you must:
he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 8:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 9:27 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 323 of 591 (792086)
10-03-2016 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Tangle
10-03-2016 9:15 AM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:
You say you don't believe in the ressurrection, the creed says you must:
And again, that is NOT what I say.
Tangle writes:
The whole intent of the creed is to claim the true god and the way to heaven through it. I'm not interested in the bible here - just the creed.
Not quite. A Creed is a statement of Faith for some organization.
What the Nicene Creed says is:
[quote]Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. [/qs]
Nothing in there about only Christians being judged.
And while YOU might not be interested in what the Bible stories say it is highly probable that those people who fought and argued over the wording of the Nicene Creed were interested in what the Bible stories said.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 9:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 10:20 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 324 of 591 (792088)
10-03-2016 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by jar
10-03-2016 9:27 AM


Re: repeating old material
Jar writes:
And again, that is NOT what I say.
Then perhaps you'll tell us precisely what you do and don't believe about the resurrection and ascension?
Not quite. A Creed is a statement of Faith for some organization.
Of which you claim to be a member so what's the objection?
Nothing in there about only Christians being judged.
Exactly, the assumption is that all will be judged. But the other assumption is that only believers in the one god will make it to the afterlife and that is what is taught by almost all versions of your club. Certainly the liberal attitude of anyone can if they're good enough would have been laughed at a few centuries ago.
"In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come."
One baptism for the remission of sins.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 9:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 10:38 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 330 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2016 11:52 AM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 325 of 591 (792090)
10-03-2016 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
10-03-2016 10:20 AM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:
Exactly, the assumption is that all will be judged. But the other assumption is that only believers in the one god will make it to the afterlife and that is what is taught by almost all versions of your club. Certainly the liberal attitude of anyone can if they're good enough would have been laughed at a few centuries ago.
"In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come."
One baptism for the remission of sins.....
Again, it is all in how YOU interpret what is written.
I have posted the Baptismal service here in the past and certainly can post it here yet again but the important point about the Baptismal service (again speaking through the lens of the Episcopal and COE) is that it too is a statement of what the persons duties are while living here on earth.
But even in the Nicene Creed you will note that the passage you are again taking out of context is a section that applies to the beliefs and procedures of the members of the Church while the whole text shows Jesus as the judge and God as the party that forgives sins.
There is nothing anyone can do including being Baptized that can forgive sins in the view and doctrine of many of the major Christian sects including the Roman Catholic Church and the COE and the Episcopal church and many other chapters of Club Christian.
Yes, many Chapters of Club Christian do market "once saved always saved" and "born again" and "not perfect just forgiven" and other versions of the Get Outta Hell Free Card; but I have also consistently spoke out against that position.
And yes, a few centuries ago Christianity in particular was the single most intolerant force on earth. If you actually read the Bible stories though and don't just rely on quote mined passages and proof texts you can find support for the "liberal attitude that anyone can be saved".
AbE: Missed this question
Tangle writes:
Then perhaps you'll tell us precisely what you do and don't believe about the resurrection and ascension?
I just covered that earlier today in Message 320.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 10:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 11:49 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 591 (792092)
10-03-2016 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Pressie
10-03-2016 7:19 AM


Re: First Council of Constantinople (381)
Yes. Everything.
That being said, I personally believe that God created the possibility of evil and that evil was then actualized through the choice of Lucifer...who then promptly fell.
I think I know where your train of thought is going on this one, however....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Pressie, posted 10-03-2016 7:19 AM Pressie has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 327 of 591 (792094)
10-03-2016 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
10-02-2016 8:55 AM


Re: repeating old material
jar writes:
I do believe that there is a GOD and I do believe that we all will be judged based on our behavior, not our beliefs or acclamation's. I also understand that as long as we are alive and perhaps even after we are dead we will not know if that is true.
Where I differ from you is that I dont believe God is "complete" as you suggest.
God is good. Jesus is and was "complete" in that being complete means being potentially both good and evil---as all humans are. We become the decisions we make. All of us fail. Jesus could have failed, but chose to succeed 100%. He was given this ability, but it was His choice every day. We are not as strong as Jesus, but--and i agree with you--we always must try. To say that the Creed is irrelevant is not a good decision, in my mind. Do you believe that the Creed is irrelevant in comparison to our decisions? Are you suggesting that perhaps the only thing relevant on a daily basis is Who He is, who We are, and our response to this truth?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 10-02-2016 8:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 12:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 328 of 591 (792095)
10-03-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by GDR
10-02-2016 8:23 PM


Re: repeating old material
GDR writes:
... God has given humans the ability to understand right and wrong, good and evil, and wants us to infect the world with that point of view.
Just a nitpick: According to Genesis 2-3, God didn't want us to have the knowledge of good and evil. We acquired it against His will. If He wants us to infect the world with it, that's Plan B.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by GDR, posted 10-02-2016 8:23 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 329 of 591 (792096)
10-03-2016 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
10-03-2016 10:38 AM


Re: repeating old material
Jar writes:
Again, it is all in how YOU interpret what is written.
I'm just reading what is written. It also complies with what I was taught. It's pretty standard stuff.
And yes, a few centuries ago Christianity in particular was the single most intolerant force on earth. If you actually read the Bible stories though and don't just rely on quote mined passages and proof texts you can find support for the "liberal attitude that anyone can be saved".
Of course you can. You can support any view you like with interpretation and context and this text and that text. My point.
I just covered that earlier today in Message 320.
Before I asked you the question I read all your previous posts and I'm still puzzled about what exactly you believe. It's simple enough, did Jesus die, resurrect and ascend into heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 10:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 12:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 330 of 591 (792097)
10-03-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
10-03-2016 10:20 AM


Re: repeating old material
In Message 316, you wrote:
NN writes:
Right. But as I pointed out, that creed does not put the Catholic Church as the authority for remission of sins.
I suspect that Catholics would disagree with you -
But not because of what the Nicene Creed says.
The creed is just an attempt at capturing the basic important stuff into one list of belief statements.
I don't see anywhere in the creed that says that it might not be the truth or the only path.
Well, it is a bunch of statements of beliefs rather than statements of facts.
We believe this and we believe that. Not, this is a fact and that is a fact.
In fact rather the opposite.
We believe [...] In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
That's not saying what you think its saying. Here's some more info on that: Four Marks of the Church - Wikipedia
The four characteristics of the Christian Church are:
1. one - one body and one spirit
2. holy - on purpose from God
3. catholic - universal and complete
4. apostolic - originated from Jesus' apostles
quote:
While specific doctrines, based on both tradition and different interpretations of the Bible, distinguish one Church or denomination from another, largely explaining why there are so many different ones, the Four Marks, when defined the same way, represent a summary of what historically have been considered the most important affirmations of the Christian faith.
From Message 322:
The whole intent of the creed is to claim the true god and the way to heaven through it. I'm not interested in the bible here - just the creed.
Not really. It was an ecumenical council, which means there were multiple groups with different beliefs participating. The intent was to get down to the basic important stuff that everyone found agreeable rather than outline the one true way that things should be.
From Message 324:
But the other assumption is that only believers in the one god will make it to the afterlife and that is what is taught by almost all versions of your club.
No, that is not covered by the creed. That is outside the creed's purpose. The creed is just a list of belief statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 10:20 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 12:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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