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Author Topic:   Explaining the pro-Evolution position
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 918 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 46 of 393 (792302)
10-07-2016 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by kjsimons
10-07-2016 9:40 PM


quote:
Coyote writes:
Natural selection kills off the also-rans.
quote:
And/or decreases the amount of genetic material passed on. Not all selection is about killing off an individual.


Correct, kjsimons, selection reduces the diversity of populations, mutations increase the diversity of populations.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by kjsimons, posted 10-07-2016 9:40 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 47 of 393 (792303)
10-07-2016 10:35 PM


This seems like a good place...
This seems like a good place to post this.

Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell (online lecture):

The bottom line: evolution works.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 7:42 PM Coyote has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 393 (792308)
10-08-2016 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Kleinman
10-07-2016 7:17 PM


There are two possible outcomes for this random trial, a mutation does occur at a particular site in the genome or a mutation does not occur at a particular site in a genome. So we are dealing with a simple binomial probability problem.

Not necessarily a simple binomial problem. It is possible that the probability that a mutation occurs at a given site is affected by environmental concerns. But the evidence suggests that this probability is not, generally speaking, correlated with the mutation being beneficial in any given environment, let alone the environment that produced the increased rate. For example, radiation may produce mutations, but those mutations generally don't make it more likely that the offspring are radiation proof.

You are correct, I should lay more groundwork to establish that my assertions are correct...

I'll talk about the second trial in a later post.

It is an improvement that you are electing to add to the discussion. But let me note that in your current posts you do not present mathematics. You merely talk about the need to do so.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2016 7:17 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15221
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 49 of 393 (792309)
10-08-2016 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Kleinman
10-07-2016 6:22 PM


quote:

If you are going to consider the mathematics of rmns, you have to consider the size of lineages in populations, not the entire population size when computing probabilities.

That is obviously incorrect. It is not true when you are considering the probability of a mutation appearing in a population, nor is it true when there is exchange of genetic material between lineages.

quote:

I assure you that I have already done the mathematics for rmns.

I rather doubt that.

However, your private probability argument is completely irrelevant to your assertion that the theory of evolution is nor a well established theory. so that claim remains completely unsupported.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2016 6:22 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31076
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 50 of 393 (792311)
10-08-2016 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Kleinman
10-07-2016 9:03 PM


I wonder if you will understand that the question you ask is irrelevant to the whether or not the word salad I responded to was simply bullshit. To do that requires some basic honesty.

What you have been doing throughout this thread is the totally dishonest tactic of refusing to address the issues presented to you, assuming prior knowledge about the understanding capabilities of the respondents and instead posting an unrelated irrelevant question.

You stated, and I quote:

quote:
Natural selection must do something very specific in order to improve the probability that a beneficial mutation will occur.

That is what I am responding to and that is the point I will continue to address until YOU show a basic understanding of why what you posted is nothing but bullshit.

Edited by jar, : an extraneous "the" not even a thee got in thar


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16851
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(4)
Message 51 of 393 (792386)
10-08-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Kleinman
10-07-2016 1:51 PM


Kleinman writes:

Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV?


You might as well ask why lead works for bullets. There is an explanation but it has nothing to do with the topic. All that matters is that it does work.

The same applies to the Theory of Evolution. All that matters is that it works as an explanation of the fact of evolution. Nobody is claiming that the Theory of Evolution is "absolute truth". They're only saying that it works. And it's the only explanation that works.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2016 1:51 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 8:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 52 of 393 (792394)
10-08-2016 2:38 PM


You've got two jobs to do Kleinman

1. Explain this great secret you're teasing us with
2. Explain why it shatters the ToE

At the moment you're behaving like a troll.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 8:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 53 of 393 (792400)
10-08-2016 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Kleinman
10-07-2016 1:51 PM


Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV?

See here.

Anything else I can help you with, Alan?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2016 1:51 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4268
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(4)
Message 54 of 393 (792409)
10-09-2016 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Kleinman
10-07-2016 9:03 PM


Failing Peer Review
Kleinman, people are getting testy with you. Your approach here is not welcome.

You have the wrong idea about what is happening on this forum when it comes to presenting alternative ideas.

If you have a proposal to make then make it, in toto. Explain to us what your hypothesis actually is. Explain the problem, state your assumptions, show us your data, show us your process (complete with the math you hint is necessary) and show us your conclusions. Do it all in one post, or, if that complex, in as few as possible for complete understanding.

Stop trying to teach us through this demeaning question/hint crap. This is not your classroom.

This is your peer review and so far you are failing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2016 9:03 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 8:25 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 64 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 8:37 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 918 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 55 of 393 (792421)
10-09-2016 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Coyote
10-07-2016 10:35 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
quote:
The bottom line: evolution works.

But rmns will not transform reptiles into birds.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Coyote, posted 10-07-2016 10:35 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Theodoric, posted 10-09-2016 8:36 PM Kleinman has responded
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 10-09-2016 8:57 PM Kleinman has not yet responded
 Message 75 by Coyote, posted 10-09-2016 9:59 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 918 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 56 of 393 (792422)
10-09-2016 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
10-08-2016 1:34 AM


quote:
If you are going to consider the mathematics of rmns, you have to consider the size of lineages in populations, not the entire population size when computing probabilities.
quote:
That is obviously incorrect. It is not true when you are considering the probability of a mutation appearing in a population, nor is it true when there is exchange of genetic material between lineages.


Do you think that every mutation is beneficial? If lineages are exchanging genetic material, why can HIV evolve resistance efficiently to combination therapy?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-08-2016 1:34 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2016 5:12 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 918 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 57 of 393 (792423)
10-09-2016 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
10-08-2016 1:34 AM


quote:
However, your private probability argument is completely irrelevant to your assertion that the theory of evolution is nor a well established theory. so that claim remains completely unsupported.

My argument is totally public and shows both mathematically and empirically why the theory of evolution is not true.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-08-2016 1:34 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2016 5:17 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 918 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 58 of 393 (792424)
10-09-2016 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
10-08-2016 1:34 AM


quote:
There are two possible outcomes for this random trial, a mutation does occur at a particular site in the genome or a mutation does not occur at a particular site in a genome. So we are dealing with a simple binomial probability problem.
quote:
Not necessarily a simple binomial problem. It is possible that the probability that a mutation occurs at a given site is affected by environmental concerns. But the evidence suggests that this probability is not, generally speaking, correlated with the mutation being beneficial in any given environment, let alone the environment that produced the increased rate. For example, radiation may produce mutations, but those mutations generally don't make it more likely that the offspring are radiation proof.


There are factors which can alter the mutation rate but when DNA is replicated, there are only two possible outcomes for that replication process. Either the correct base is duplicated at the particular site or there is an error in replication at the particular site, that is a mutation has occurred.
quote:
You are correct, I should lay more groundwork to establish that my assertions are correct...
I'll talk about the second trial in a later post.
quote:
It is an improvement that you are electing to add to the discussion. But let me note that in your current posts you do not present mathematics. You merely talk about the need to do so.


We are doing the first steps of the mathematics right here. The first step in analyzing a stochastic process is identifying the random trial(s) (experiment(s)) and the possible outcomes for the random trial.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-08-2016 1:34 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 918 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 59 of 393 (792425)
10-09-2016 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
10-08-2016 11:41 AM


quote:
Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV?
quote:
You might as well ask why lead works for bullets. There is an explanation but it has nothing to do with the topic. All that matters is that it does work.
The same applies to the Theory of Evolution. All that matters is that it works as an explanation of the fact of evolution. Nobody is claiming that the Theory of Evolution is "absolute truth". They're only saying that it works. And it's the only explanation that works.


There is a specific mathematical reason why combination therapy works for the treatment of HIV. And that mathematical reason is tied to how rmns works. And don't get me wrong, evolution does occur, but the mechanisms of evolution, in particular, rmns, can not make the genetic transformations necessary for the theory of evolution to be true.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 10-08-2016 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 10-11-2016 12:00 PM Kleinman has responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 918 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 60 of 393 (792426)
10-09-2016 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
10-08-2016 2:38 PM


quote:
You've got two jobs to do Kleinman
1. Explain this great secret you're teasing us with
2. Explain why it shatters the ToE

At the moment you're behaving like a troll.



Be patient, I'm not trying to tease you, I'm trying to introduce you to the concepts required to understand how rmns works. If you follow all the posts, you will see the reason.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 10-08-2016 2:38 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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