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Author Topic:   Explaining the pro-Evolution position
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 286 of 393 (792801)
10-14-2016 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:12 PM


Re: Waiting For Goddidit, we know rmnsdidn'tdoit
Thanks Doc. BTW, if you think that fixation and amplification are the same thing ...

I don't, which is why I have never said so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:12 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15329
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 287 of 393 (792802)
10-14-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:08 PM


Re: Is it summation time?
I have a question for you Kleinman. Since you militantly refuse to understand rmns how can you possibly know that a proper understanding would falsify evolution ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:08 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 1:13 PM PaulK has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 288 of 393 (792803)
10-14-2016 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:16 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:


I think you will find some disagreement with other posters on this thread. As long as mutation are random events, beneficial mutations are just a subset of all mutations.

I don't see how that addresses anything in my post.

Let's use military tanks as an example. Let's say that two possible upgrades for a tank are thicker armor and a more powerful main gun. A tank with either thicker armor or a more powerful gun would be better. A tank with BOTH thicker armor and a more powerful gun would be better than a tank with just one upgrade. The upgrades are additive in that both upgrades add up to a better tank than a single upgrade by itself.

This is often how beneficial mutations work. A beneficial mutation is beneficial all by itself. When it is combined with another beneficial mutation, the individual with two beneficial mutations is more fit than an individual with just one of those beneficial mutations.

The problem with your HIV model is that it doesn't take this into account. You are only looking at situations where you need both mutations in order to see an increase in fitness. As discussed earlier, this isn't always the case in the real world.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:16 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 1:21 PM Taq has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 289 of 393 (792804)
10-14-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Taq
10-14-2016 11:06 AM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
I don't have a reference at hand, but I may find time to find one.

I think my example of melanin production and malaria resistance should suffice, unless someone can explain how darker skin will not be selected for unless someone also has mutations that confer malarial resistance (and visa versa).

I meant specifically for the bit where you said "the individual viruses with just one potentially beneficially mutation do not reproduce at a higher rate".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Taq, posted 10-14-2016 11:06 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Taq, posted 10-14-2016 12:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 290 of 393 (792805)
10-14-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:01 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:

Don't get me wrong, there's more than one way replicators can adapt to selection pressures other than rmns. Recombination is a much faster way replicators can adapt and they can do it to multiple selection pressures simultaneously. But they have to have the correct alleles already in the gene pool.

Recombination events are random mutations, and recombination events can produce new alleles.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:01 PM Kleinman has responded

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 291 of 393 (792806)
10-14-2016 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:01 PM


the equality of pressure?
On the other hand, rmns is the creation of new alleles in order to adapt.

Yet more evidence I am correct in my assessment of your argument. Random mutations create new alleles. Natural selection does not create new alleles. And NONE OF IT happens 'in order to adapt'.

The new alleles are in competition with the other alleles. If it replicates at a faster rate than they, they will increase in frequency - else they won't. That's natural selection. It doesn't create alleles it's just the phenomena that alleles which are able to replicate more, will be more replicated.

And if the adaptation requires the creation of multiple different new alleles at different genetic loci due to multiple different selection pressures simultaneously, the chances of adaptation are extremely low and the process is extremely slow if it going to happen

If apply pressure to carbon, will I get a diamond? Surely it depends on the magnitude of the pressure. Why do you assume all pressures are equal in biology?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:01 PM Kleinman has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 292 of 393 (792807)
10-14-2016 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2016 12:30 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Dr Adequate writes:

I meant specifically for the bit where you said "the individual viruses with just one potentially beneficially mutation do not reproduce at a higher rate".

Sorry for the confusion.

With multidrug therapy, if a virus gains a mutation that confers resistance to just one of the drugs it will not be fitter than other viruses without that same mutation. This means that individual viral particles with just one mutation to one drug will replicate at the same rate as those without the mutation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 12:30 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 12:39 PM Taq has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 293 of 393 (792808)
10-14-2016 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Taq
10-14-2016 12:33 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Sorry for the confusion.

With multidrug therapy, if a virus gains a mutation that confers resistance to just one of the drugs it will not be fitter than other viruses without that same mutation. This means that individual viral particles with just one mutation to one drug will replicate at the same rate as those without the mutation.

But do you have a reference for this? It seems like quite an important point, so it would be nice to have something to back it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Taq, posted 10-14-2016 12:33 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Taq, posted 10-14-2016 12:53 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 953 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 294 of 393 (792809)
10-14-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2016 12:02 PM


Re: Mathematics
quote:
It is the joint probability that two or more beneficial mutation occur on a lineage which drives this problem.

Well, that probability's going to be 1, given enough time. So the only problem with, for example, dinosaur-to-bird evolution can be time. So we need to do a calculation about time. This is going to involve knowing things like the probability that a mutation will be beneficial. So why, when asked for this probability, do you say:

My answer is I don't know. But this is not a number which you have to know to understand how rmns works.


Time is not measured in seconds, minutes, hours for rmns, the measure of time for rmns is replications (generations). And under the right circumstances, the probability of two beneficial mutations occurring on a lineage can go to 1 if there is sufficient amplification (and fixation is not necessary).

The reason I answer I don't know to a question is I don't know. And the notion of a beneficial mutation is a slippery thing as well. Sickle cell trait might be beneficial in one environment with Malaria but in an environment without Malaria, at best that mutation is neutral and under some circumstances detrimental.

What you can do with calculations like mine are obtain estimates of the upper limits of the probabilities for rmns. Assume that when the mutation occurs at the particular site, it is always the beneficial mutation, that will raise your probabilities slightly but it will not make the multiplication rule go away when more than a single beneficial mutation must occur on a lineage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 12:02 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 12:43 PM Kleinman has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 295 of 393 (792810)
10-14-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:40 PM


Re: Mathematics
Time is not measured in seconds, minutes, hours for rmns, the measure of time for rmns is replications (generations).

Quite: so generation time is also something you'd need to know.

The reason I answer I don't know to a question is I don't know.

But why did you say you didn't need to know?

What you can do with calculations like mine are obtain estimates of the upper limits of the probabilities for rmns. Assume that when the mutation occurs at the particular site, it is always the beneficial mutation, that will raise your probabilities slightly but it will not make the multiplication rule go away when more than a single beneficial mutation must occur on a lineage.

Again, the probability of that is 1 --- given enough time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:40 PM Kleinman has responded

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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 953 days)
Posts: 136
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 296 of 393 (792811)
10-14-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
10-14-2016 12:03 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
quote:
Kleinman writes:

There seems to be some misunderstanding to my argument. rmns is a mechanism of evolution which does occur and I have explained exactly how it works. It is the theory of evolution, the notion that some primordial replicator through rmns evolved into all the life forms we see today is a mathematically irrational belief system.


The challenge for you is to show what could prevent random mutation and natural selection from evolving a primordial replicator into all the life forms we see today. You need to show a physical/chemical/biological roadblock, not just a mathematical fantasy.

You don't think that the multiplication rule of probabilities is a roadblock? I hope your expectations aren't too high when you buy tickets to two different lotteries and think you are going to win both. You had better buy a lot of tickets. And then if you think about the length of the human genome, 3e9, how many tickets do you need to buy to win all those lotteries?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 10-14-2016 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Taq, posted 10-14-2016 12:51 PM Kleinman has responded
 Message 299 by PaulK, posted 10-14-2016 12:56 PM Kleinman has responded
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 10-14-2016 12:56 PM Kleinman has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 297 of 393 (792813)
10-14-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:47 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:

You don't think that the multiplication rule of probabilities is a roadblock?

No more so than having more than one step in a flight of stairs is a problem. All you do is rinse and repeat the same process.

I hope your expectations aren't too high when you buy tickets to two different lotteries and think you are going to win both.

You don't have to win both. The descendants of two winners can meet up and combine their winnings. That is how sexual recombination works.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:47 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:09 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 298 of 393 (792814)
10-14-2016 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2016 12:39 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Dr Adequate writes:

But do you have a reference for this? It seems like quite an important point, so it would be nice to have something to back it up.

I would think that it would be self evident. Multidrug regimens are designed so that resistance to one drug does not affect the efficacy of the other drugs in the regimen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 12:39 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 1:33 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15329
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 299 of 393 (792815)
10-14-2016 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:47 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
quote:

You don't think that the multiplication rule of probabilities is a roadblock?

Quite obviously it is not. To anyone with a proper understanding of probability theory. I already explained why it is not.

Do you concede that it is possible to generate sequences of arbitrarily small probability ? Or do you think that there is some limit that can't be passed ? Some minimum probability ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:47 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:14 PM PaulK has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17168
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 300 of 393 (792816)
10-14-2016 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:47 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:

You don't think that the multiplication rule of probabilities is a roadblock?


I asked for a physical roadblock. So far it looks like you've just got the mathematics wrong, so a mathematical roadblock doesn't cut it.

Kleinman writes:

I hope your expectations aren't too high when you buy tickets to two different lotteries and think you are going to win both.


Of course there's nothing to prevent that from happening.

Kleinman writes:

And then if you think about the length of the human genome, 3e9, how many tickets do you need to buy to win all those lotteries?


But it isn't a question of winning all of them independently. What if the prize in Lottery A is a million tickets for Lottery B?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:47 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
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