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Author | Topic: Explaining the pro-Evolution position | |||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: You don't think that the multiplication rule of probabilities is a roadblock? No more so than having more than one step in a flight of stairs is a problem. All you do is rinse and repeat the same process.
I hope your expectations aren't too high when you buy tickets to two different lotteries and think you are going to win both. You don't have to win both. The descendants of two winners can meet up and combine their winnings. That is how sexual recombination works.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dr Adequate writes: But do you have a reference for this? It seems like quite an important point, so it would be nice to have something to back it up. I would think that it would be self evident. Multidrug regimens are designed so that resistance to one drug does not affect the efficacy of the other drugs in the regimen.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
That's the point, Lenski is using only a single directional selection pressure, starvation. He is selecting for the most efficient energy users. And if Lenski were to add a second simultaneous selection pressure, for example, thermal stress, the amplification of the mutations which increase energy efficiency will be slowed by the thermal stress applied to these populations. As long as the thermal stress was not lethal, the adaptation for energy efficiency would not be slowed. Bacteria with adaptations to just one of the selection pressures would outcompete bacteria with none of the adaptations.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: Are you suggesting that putting a bigger gun and more armor on a tank are random processes? It's an analogy, chief.
That may be true but the probability for that member getting both those beneficial mutations is computed using the multiplication rule, not the addition rule. You are wrong. Both beneficial alleles will become common in the population, making offspring with both beneficial alleles a nearly unavoidable outcome. The appearance of individuals with both beneficial alleles will only be limited by the least beneficial allele spreading through the population. The time needed to start seeing individuals with both beneficial alleles is much, much less than your claimed multiplicative probability.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: There's some very smart people who peer reviewed and published my work on rmns. They see the importance of understanding the physics and mathematics of rmns because of its impact on the evolution of drug resistance. Evolution of drug resistance is a really poor model for things like the evolution of feathers. Quite obviously, tetrapods with scales instead of feathers are still doing quite well. They aren't facing complete extinction in one generation if they don't develop feathers all at once. What feathers allowed a lineage to do is move to a niche with less competition. This is VERY different from the evolution of drug resistance.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: You are making an assumption that the energy fit variants will not be inhibited from reproducing when held at sub-optimal temperatures. The effect of thermal stress would be the same for both the energy fit and the less energy fit. This would allow the energy fit to outcompete the less energy fit.
Does doubling population size double the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring? It doubles the probability of any mutation occurring at a specific locus.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: How does evolution of drug resistance differ than evolution by rmns to any other kind of selection pressure? Selection pressures are rarely binary between survival and death. It wasn't as if a species with scales would go extinct in a single generation if it didn't evolve feathers.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: Try climbing two different flights of stairs at the same time. That's exactly what sexual species do.
You win a lottery, everyone wants to marry you. Your tacit admission of defeat is accepted.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: So if you put starvation pressure and thermal stress on the population at the same time, well you figure it out. Perhaps you should figure it out.
Why doesn't anything evolve resistance to Iodine? The reason is that Iodine is a very reactive molecule binding to all kinds of biological molecules, denaturing the molecules, far too many targets for rmns to have any chance for a replicator to evolve resistance to this chemical. You claim that RMNS can't produce the features we do see. Why don't you focus on the features we do see instead of the features we don't see.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
What you are not seeing is that the thermal stress will be impairing the replication of the energy fit variants when compared to running the experiment at the ideal temperature. The ability to amplify any beneficial mutation for a given selection pressure can and is impaired by other selection pressures. Thermal stress is imparing the energy fit and the less energy fit by the same amount in the hotter environment. What differentiates the energy fit and the less energy fit in the same environment is their energy efficiency. This causes an amplification of the energy fit in that environment.
So if the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring for a population size N is let's say 0.6 and you double the population size to 2N, the probability becomes 1.2? The probability of drawing the Ace of Spades is 1 in 52 attempts. The odds of drawing the Ace of spaces in 104 draws is 2. Not that hard to figure out.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: I have figured it out, I published the mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures. But in order to understand this paper, you need to understand the difference between complementary events and additive events. I already demonstrated that it is you who doesn't understand the difference.
I have done this, all my mathematics is done based on real, measurable and repeatable examples of rmns. All your mathematics have shown that what we observe has evolved through RMNS. You have never shown a real difference between two species that could not be produced by RMNS.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: rmns is suppressed long before extinction occurs. Even if the population can survive multiple different simultaneous selection pressures, you won't get the amplification necessary for rmns to work efficiently. I already disproved that by showing how two beneficial mutations in two separate lineages can be combined into a single lineage through sexual recombination. This means that you can win two lotteries at once, or walk up two separate staircases at the same time.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: So you think that a range animal cannot be subjected to thermal stress, starvation, predation, disease, dehydration,... at the same time? Please try to reply to what I actually said.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: And then there is always 3 and more different flights of stairs. What happens then? Those adaptations are also selected for within the population and can be combined into a single lineage through sexual recombination.
Not quite yet, you still have quite a few more flights of stairs to climb. We are going to get you cardiac fit and teach you a little probability theory before this is over. Or you could actually address my posts instead of running away from them. You don't have to win two lotteries. The descendants of two lottery winners can marry, pooling the winnings together. Are you going to respond to this in a meaningful manner, or not?
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: All adaption by rmns requires lineages to address nested binomial probability problems. It doesn't matter whether they are antimicrobial agents, starvation, dehydration, thermal stress, predation, diseases, you name it. Asexual species overcome these problems by conquering one at a time, not all at once. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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