Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Explaining the pro-Evolution position
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 297 of 393 (792813)
10-14-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:47 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:
You don't think that the multiplication rule of probabilities is a roadblock?
No more so than having more than one step in a flight of stairs is a problem. All you do is rinse and repeat the same process.
I hope your expectations aren't too high when you buy tickets to two different lotteries and think you are going to win both.
You don't have to win both. The descendants of two winners can meet up and combine their winnings. That is how sexual recombination works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:47 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 298 of 393 (792814)
10-14-2016 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2016 12:39 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Dr Adequate writes:
But do you have a reference for this? It seems like quite an important point, so it would be nice to have something to back it up.
I would think that it would be self evident. Multidrug regimens are designed so that resistance to one drug does not affect the efficacy of the other drugs in the regimen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 12:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2016 1:33 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 303 of 393 (792819)
10-14-2016 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 12:58 PM


Re: Lenski
That's the point, Lenski is using only a single directional selection pressure, starvation. He is selecting for the most efficient energy users. And if Lenski were to add a second simultaneous selection pressure, for example, thermal stress, the amplification of the mutations which increase energy efficiency will be slowed by the thermal stress applied to these populations.
As long as the thermal stress was not lethal, the adaptation for energy efficiency would not be slowed. Bacteria with adaptations to just one of the selection pressures would outcompete bacteria with none of the adaptations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 12:58 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:29 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 307 of 393 (792824)
10-14-2016 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 1:21 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:
Are you suggesting that putting a bigger gun and more armor on a tank are random processes?
It's an analogy, chief.
That may be true but the probability for that member getting both those beneficial mutations is computed using the multiplication rule, not the addition rule.
You are wrong. Both beneficial alleles will become common in the population, making offspring with both beneficial alleles a nearly unavoidable outcome. The appearance of individuals with both beneficial alleles will only be limited by the least beneficial allele spreading through the population. The time needed to start seeing individuals with both beneficial alleles is much, much less than your claimed multiplicative probability.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 1:21 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 309 of 393 (792826)
10-14-2016 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 1:13 PM


Re: Is it summation time?
Kleinman writes:
There's some very smart people who peer reviewed and published my work on rmns. They see the importance of understanding the physics and mathematics of rmns because of its impact on the evolution of drug resistance.
Evolution of drug resistance is a really poor model for things like the evolution of feathers. Quite obviously, tetrapods with scales instead of feathers are still doing quite well. They aren't facing complete extinction in one generation if they don't develop feathers all at once.
What feathers allowed a lineage to do is move to a niche with less competition. This is VERY different from the evolution of drug resistance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 1:13 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 322 of 393 (792840)
10-14-2016 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 2:29 PM


Re: Lenski
Kleinman writes:
You are making an assumption that the energy fit variants will not be inhibited from reproducing when held at sub-optimal temperatures.
The effect of thermal stress would be the same for both the energy fit and the less energy fit. This would allow the energy fit to outcompete the less energy fit.
Does doubling population size double the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring?
It doubles the probability of any mutation occurring at a specific locus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:29 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:18 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 323 of 393 (792841)
10-14-2016 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 2:34 PM


Re: Is it summation time?
Kleinman writes:
How does evolution of drug resistance differ than evolution by rmns to any other kind of selection pressure?
Selection pressures are rarely binary between survival and death. It wasn't as if a species with scales would go extinct in a single generation if it didn't evolve feathers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:34 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:23 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 324 of 393 (792842)
10-14-2016 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 2:09 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:
Try climbing two different flights of stairs at the same time.
That's exactly what sexual species do.
You win a lottery, everyone wants to marry you.
Your tacit admission of defeat is accepted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:09 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:32 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 329 of 393 (792849)
10-14-2016 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 2:48 PM


Re: Lenski
Kleinman writes:
So if you put starvation pressure and thermal stress on the population at the same time, well you figure it out.
Perhaps you should figure it out.
Why doesn't anything evolve resistance to Iodine? The reason is that Iodine is a very reactive molecule binding to all kinds of biological molecules, denaturing the molecules, far too many targets for rmns to have any chance for a replicator to evolve resistance to this chemical.
You claim that RMNS can't produce the features we do see. Why don't you focus on the features we do see instead of the features we don't see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 2:48 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:53 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 344 of 393 (792866)
10-14-2016 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 3:18 PM


Re: Lenski
What you are not seeing is that the thermal stress will be impairing the replication of the energy fit variants when compared to running the experiment at the ideal temperature. The ability to amplify any beneficial mutation for a given selection pressure can and is impaired by other selection pressures.
Thermal stress is imparing the energy fit and the less energy fit by the same amount in the hotter environment. What differentiates the energy fit and the less energy fit in the same environment is their energy efficiency. This causes an amplification of the energy fit in that environment.
So if the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring for a population size N is let's say 0.6 and you double the population size to 2N, the probability becomes 1.2?
The probability of drawing the Ace of Spades is 1 in 52 attempts. The odds of drawing the Ace of spaces in 104 draws is 2. Not that hard to figure out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:18 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 5:47 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 345 of 393 (792867)
10-14-2016 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 3:53 PM


Re: Lenski
Kleinman writes:
I have figured it out, I published the mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures. But in order to understand this paper, you need to understand the difference between complementary events and additive events.
I already demonstrated that it is you who doesn't understand the difference.
I have done this, all my mathematics is done based on real, measurable and repeatable examples of rmns.
All your mathematics have shown that what we observe has evolved through RMNS. You have never shown a real difference between two species that could not be produced by RMNS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:53 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 346 of 393 (792868)
10-14-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 4:41 PM


Re: Lenski
Kleinman writes:
rmns is suppressed long before extinction occurs. Even if the population can survive multiple different simultaneous selection pressures, you won't get the amplification necessary for rmns to work efficiently.
I already disproved that by showing how two beneficial mutations in two separate lineages can be combined into a single lineage through sexual recombination. This means that you can win two lotteries at once, or walk up two separate staircases at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 4:41 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 347 of 393 (792869)
10-14-2016 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 3:23 PM


Re: Is it summation time?
Kleinman writes:
So you think that a range animal cannot be subjected to thermal stress, starvation, predation, disease, dehydration,... at the same time?
Please try to reply to what I actually said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:23 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 348 of 393 (792870)
10-14-2016 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 3:32 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:
And then there is always 3 and more different flights of stairs. What happens then?
Those adaptations are also selected for within the population and can be combined into a single lineage through sexual recombination.
Not quite yet, you still have quite a few more flights of stairs to climb. We are going to get you cardiac fit and teach you a little probability theory before this is over.
Or you could actually address my posts instead of running away from them.
You don't have to win two lotteries. The descendants of two lottery winners can marry, pooling the winnings together.
Are you going to respond to this in a meaningful manner, or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 3:32 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 356 of 393 (792879)
10-14-2016 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 5:12 PM


Re: Is it summation time?
Kleinman writes:
All adaption by rmns requires lineages to address nested binomial probability problems. It doesn't matter whether they are antimicrobial agents, starvation, dehydration, thermal stress, predation, diseases, you name it.
Asexual species overcome these problems by conquering one at a time, not all at once.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 5:12 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024