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Author | Topic: Brexit - Should they stay or should they go? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
frako writes:
That means that their reasoning was different from yours, not that they were irrational.
Well given that they voted to pay the same tarifs to trade with the eu, but not get a voice in how the eu market is run, over paying tarifs geting some of the money back and having a vote on how the eu market is run. My guess is that they where not so rational.
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Removed double post.
Edited by ringo, : Site hung up for ten minutes and didn't finish posting - or did it?
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Are you deliberately being evasive? Except that you did not question me. Okay, I'll question you now: Why did you claim that "it wasn't the rational minds who wanted out of the EU"? Notice the "Why" at the beginning and the question mark at the end. That is officially a question. Can I get an answer?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: They need quantitative easing schemes to enable rate cuts. There will be inflation, but it could be massive if QE ever starts to look like a scheme and fumes itself into a very very bad odor (which will lead to a major crash and burn that would be unprecedented in history as QE itself had no precedent before the 2008 idea flashed like a light-bulb in the meeting halls American Fed which in turn became a worldwide "solution" to avoid having to raise interest rates. ) Warning signs are all around us, despite the general delusion.
quote: The British economy it poised to shrink with all the (recent) anti-immigration sentiment probably leading to actual slowdowns in immigration - a major source of the economic growth. With the driver of economic growth in the U.K. stopped cold, the U.K. economy will follow. The European economy will suffer the slowdown of the U.K. economy. (Poland for sure due to loosing remittances and a driver of their growth, but all will suffer from loosing export sales) A deadly cycle at a very bad time - when national debts are at historically high levels. Receding (or slowing)economies will suffer less revenue from less economic activity. Less revenue to the government will lead to higher deficits. Higher deficits will lead to the need for finding bond purchasers to finance the growing debt. A growing debt and smaller GDP means a very high debt to GDP ratio (which could get way out of hand as has happened in Japan). Quantitative Easing to the rescue? For how long? That's the big question. Very big indeed. The difference between super high interest rates and inflation and very low interest rates and inflation. The difference between a default (which will cascade to multiple nations) on the one hand or steady-as-she-goes fiscal matters on the other. The difference between growth (typically very small) and/or a (slight) recession on the one hand or depression on the other. It's a big question because the consequences are so very big.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Well, no surprise. Scotland's Nicola Sturgeon (of the SNP) is now pushing forward talks on a second independence referendum:
SNP's Nicola Sturgeon announces new independence referendum bill - BBC News With Brexit now reality and it appears the new Prime Minister is moving forward with it, Scotland is going to attempt to separate itself from the UK. I am curious how this will play out. It was 55-45 to stay in the last referendum prior to Brexit. But with Scotland wanting to remain in the EU, as evidenced by the way they voted on Brexit, I wonder if they will now be able to swing those 10% of voters to the other side. Curious what those of you in the UK are hearing on the ground over there.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
There's no appetite in Scotland for another referendum, if they called one now they'd just lose again. Not only that, oil prices have plummeted since the referendum and it's now impossible for them to do it financially - it always was but now it's in their face obvious. She's blowing smoke.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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LamarkNewAge writes: The British economy it poised to shrink with all the (recent) anti-immigration sentiment probably leading to actual slowdowns in immigration - a major source of the economic growth. That is something I wish many of my fellow citizens here in the US would understand. Not only do immigrants grow the economy, they also help to stabilize social programs for the elderly baby boomers. When you have more pensioners than workers it won't be pretty.
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Pressie Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
That is something I wish many of my fellow citizens here in the US would understand. Not only do immigrants grow the economy, they also help to stabilize social programs for the elderly baby boomers. When you have more pensioners than workers it won't be pretty That's something I experienced in Sydney. Immigrants from Ethiopia and Zim did the refuge removals, as the locals and other immigrants from places such as India see it as below their status. The locals just didn't have enough grown children to be able to effectively take all their rubbish away every week at the minimum wage. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1350 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Of course it can. Like any federal system, it has the power to overrule the sovereignty of any of its constituent states, provinces, etc. I know this is a very old post, but I stopped reading the thread because I was depressed about the vote. I see no one ever responded, so I thought I'd point out that you're wrong. The EU is not a federal system, and the Commission has no authority to overrule national governments. EU law can override national law, but the Commission doesn't introduce law at a whim. Most law requires the consent of the democratically-elected parliament and a supermajority of member-state governments. The Commission can express an opinion if it thinks a member state is in violation of EU law, but this opinion has no power; and it requires a ruling from the European Court of Justice to actually do anything. The last time the Commission told the UK it was breaking the rules, they took the case to the ECJ, and the ECJ ruled in favour of the UK government. What happened to their dictatorial powers there? This has been part of the problem with this whole debate. The European system that has been slowly created as a series of compromises and makeshift solutions over the course of the last 70 years is fiendishly complicated, and very few people actually understand how it works. And this is not just the case for those who voted to leave.
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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caffeine writes:
That's what I said.
EU law can override national law... caffeine writes:
So it's worse than I thought. Only "most" law requires the consent of the democratically-elected parliament. And the minority of member-state governments can be trampled on.
... but the Commission doesn't introduce law at a whim. Most law requires the consent of the democratically-elected parliament and a supermajority of member-state governments.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
ringo writes: caffeine writes:EU law can override national law... That's not strictly true, it's more complicated and subtle than that. This is the best way I've seen it described:
quote: The thing is, the Human Rights Act is a UK law, we adopted the European Convention on Human Rights into our own legislation in 1998 but we've been using it since 1950. It was introduced just after the war - for obvious reasons.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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That is something I wish many of my fellow citizens here in the US would understand. Not only do immigrants grow the economy, they also help to stabilize social programs for the elderly baby boomers. When you have more pensioners than workers it won't be pretty. Everybody is aware of that. And the USA was the country that used to exemplify that philosophy. "give us your tired huddled masses yearning to breathe free" and so forth. So why has that philosophy changed? Two reasons: 1) Previous immigrants were mostly white, so that was considered 'acceptable' by most. Now that many appear 'different', the racist douchebags in our country have rallied behind a con man to try to make immigration stop. Which is ironic since The Donald isn't white: he's orange. 2) The corporate big wigs who have been systematically destroying the middle class of this country to line their own pockets have been using rhetoric to divert attention away from their scheme. And they do so by blaming the immigrants, who are 'stealing American jobs'. Because the Mexican family picking fruit in the field took your manufacturing job away and moved it to China.
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
It isn't just about Human Rights, though, is it?
The thing is, the Human Rights Act is a UK law, we adopted the European Convention on Human Rights into our own legislation in 1998 but we've been using it since 1950.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
ringo writes: It isn't just about Human Rights, though, is it? Nope, not just the HRA, but it's the HRA where most of the disagreements occur.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1350 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
That's what I said. No it's not. You said the European Commission can override national governments. It's the difference between saying that Federal law can overrule state law and saying that the President can overrule a State legislature. Do you not see any difference between these concepts?
So it's worse than I thought. Only "most" law requires the consent of the democratically-elected parliament. And the minority of member-state governments can be trampled on. All law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament.
Most law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and a supermajority of member-state governments.
Some law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and 100% of the member-state governments. Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.
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