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Author | Topic: Brexit - Should they stay or should they go? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
caffeine Member (Idle past 1350 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
That's not strictly true, it's more complicated and subtle than that. It is the case that EU law overrides national law - in the UK this is enshrined in the European Communities Act. When this question was raised in the House of Lords, Law Lord Robert Goff argued in his judgement that it is:
quote: Which is perfectly in line with the ECJ's interpretation of EU law. The UK Parliament is perfectly within its rights to overrule EU law if it wishes, but it must do so explicitly, and would of course be required to leave the EU.
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
caffeine writes:
You're making more of a distinction between the Commission and the Parliament than I am. Personally, I don't care whether it's the left hand or the right hand that's doing the oppressing.
You said the European Commission can override national governments. caffeine writes:
You left out this bit:
All law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament. Most law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and a supermajority of member-state governments. Some law requires the consent of the democratically-elected Parliament and 100% of the member-state governments.quote:But only in "some" cases. You think that's okay then?
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1350 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
You're making more of a distinction between the Commission and the Parliament than I am. Personally, I don't care whether it's the left hand or the right hand that's doing the oppressing. I was making a distinction between the Commission and the law, because they're very different things. The commission and the Parliament are also very different things. If you're not making these distinctions then you're not talking about anything, you're just blathering meaninglessly (much like the majority of the debate on Brexit.
And the minority of member-state governments can be trampled on. But only in "some" cases. You think that's okay then? Its a very odd way to look at things. I thought you were supporting Britain's exit from the EU, but it seems not, because almost half of voters wanted to remain - we can't trample on them, can we?
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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caffeine writes:
I have always thought that the EU was a bad idea and I think the voters made the right decision - democracy over economics, as I have said before. I thought you were supporting Britain's exit from the EU, but it seems not, because almost half of voters wanted to remain - we can't trample on them, can we? Democracy does follow the will of the majority but it is the duty of the majority not to trample on minorities. Those who voted for Brexit are not trampling on the rights of those who voted against it. They're choosing local concerns over international concerns. We have similar situations here in Canada all the time with our federal system. Federations are always in danger of secession and/or collapse. Czechoslovakia came apart. Yugoslavia came apart. The Soviet Union came apart. The USA fought a civil war and narrowly avoided coming apart. There's no reason to think the Holy EU Empire will be any different.
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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Diomedes writes: Everybody is aware of that. Not in the US of A. The Republican line is that immigrants are a net burden on social systems.
2) The corporate big wigs who have been systematically destroying the middle class of this country to line their own pockets have been using rhetoric to divert attention away from their scheme. And they do so by blaming the immigrants, who are 'stealing American jobs'. Because the Mexican family picking fruit in the field took your manufacturing job away and moved it to China. I grew up in a rural area where migrant workers are common. Whenever I hear people claiming that immigrants are taking our jobs all I want to do is ask them how they lost their job hoeing beets or tasseling corn. It is pretty preposterous. It's not as if Java coders are flooding over the southern border.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Democracy does follow the will of the majority but it is the duty of the majority not to trample on minorities. Those who voted for Brexit are not trampling on the rights of those who voted against it. Perhaps that is semantically true, but this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want. The minority in this case is a substantial portion of the population. Just short of fifty percent. If trampling is the wrong word, then certainly "giving short shrift to" would not be out of place. I'd also add that just having a rationale does not make a decision rational. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
NoNukes writes: Perhaps that is semantically true, but this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want. The minority in this case is a substantial portion of the population. Just short of fifty percent. If trampling is the wrong word, then certainly "giving short shrift to" would not be out of place. At what point do you accept a majority win as a majority win? 55%? 51%? What rationale are you using? I am sure Al Gore would like to know the answer to that question. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
How is that different from any other situation? There would be no point to having a vote if everybody got what they wanted. ... this is a situation in which it is impossible for both sides to get what they want. Edited by ringo, : No reason given.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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Nicola Sturgeon, the PM of Scotland is calling for a new referendum on Scottish independence.
http://www.bbc.com/...uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181
quote: I think all the dialog around a potential 'hard Brexit' are likely driving this.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Diomedes writes: I think all the dialog around a potential 'hard Brexit' are likely driving this. Nope, her political oportunism is driving it. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Nope, her political oportunism is driving it. Naturally. She is a politician after-all.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1609 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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quote: ‘Divisive’ referendum ‘will cause huge economic uncertainty’ says woman enacting divisive referendum causing huge economic uncertainty
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Main question now is what Theresa May will do.
Ultimately, she has to approve another referendum. She could technically say 'no' but being brusque about it may not go over well with the Scottish people. If she says 'yes', she may push for a timeframe that would have the independence vote occur after all the machinations from Brexit are completed. Will be curious to see how that will play out.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9637 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Diomedes writes: Main question now is what Theresa May will do.Ultimately, she has to approve another referendum. She could technically say 'no' but being brusque about it may not go over well with the Scottish people. She could quite fairly ask for evidence that the people support the idea of another referendum.
If she says 'yes', she may push for a timeframe that would have the independence vote occur after all the machinations from Brexit are completed. Will be curious to see how that will play out. There's no way she'll accept a referendum until after the Brexit deal - if then. The only case they have - if any - is that the Scots voted to stay in, and they can't know whether they want to stay until they've seen the final deal. And no one actually knows when the final deal is going to be signed. Rumour has it that the majority of the next 2 yeras will be spent trying to work out how the UK can be granted an extension.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Theresa May has made it official. Article 50 will be triggered on March 29th.
Article 50: Theresa May to trigger Brexit process next week - BBC News And here come the political wranglings.
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