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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 586 of 1163 (793737)
11-05-2016 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 4:50 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Even as a creationist, I agree with you that there would be fossils before the flood. I place the flood at the PT boundary which is where the flooding evidence exists. All fossils before the PT boundary are pre-flood fossils.
Why do the pre-flood fossils look so different to organisms living today, when they were in fact all created in the same week and all lived together at the same time?
For example, why do we have fossils of pre-flood trilobites but not pre-flood lobsters? Fossils of tabulate corals from before the flood, but not pre-flood scleractinian corals? Fossils of pre-flood gorgonopsians and diadectomorphs but never a pre-flood crocodile or lion --- or dinosaur, if it comes to that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 4:50 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:32 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 587 of 1163 (793738)
11-05-2016 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 5:48 PM


Radiometric dating
Well this isn't the thread to discuss the flaws of radiometric dating.
Right.
The correct thread is one I proposed months back, and to which no creationist has yet contributed:
EvC Forum: Assumptions involved in scientific dating
Care to try your luck?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 5:48 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 588 of 1163 (793739)
11-05-2016 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 583 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 5:44 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
quote:
You make a good point about the exoskeleton being cast off, I didn't think about that But regarding the order of fossils, surely it's obvious that if bacteria and trilobites are created at the same time in numbers, dead cells of bacteria would exist before the first trilobite casts off it's exoskeleton?
Since bacteria don't die of old age, and since the most famous pre-Cambrian fossils are stromatolites rather than individual bacterial cells it is certainly not obvious.
quote:
It appears that most major present phyla did appear in the Cambrian Explosion, also consistent with creation week.
I don't know why you think that. Especially as you claim that the order of the fossil record indicates deaths rather than creation. The fact that early representatives of the phyla don't necessarily look an awful lot like later forms is another issue. And isn't the late appearance of the Bryozoa rather a big problem for you ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 5:44 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:40 PM PaulK has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 589 of 1163 (793741)
11-05-2016 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by Dr Adequate
11-05-2016 6:05 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Good point. But there are pre-flood archosaurs. Precursor to dinosaurs and modern crocodiles. And most current phyla are represented in the Cambrian Explosion. I do believe in rapid adaptation, relating to changes in allele frequencies. ie we have nearly unchanging DNA structures over time, but some adaptation expressed in the physiology. And so we don't always see the modern breeds/forms expressed in the original fossil record.
But Creationism does predict that increasingly modern kinds will be found fossilised in ancient strata, and occasionally vice versa (as per the coelecanth).
In addition our modern terrestrial environment was not a prevalent ecosystem in pre-flood times. ie generally the more prevalent terrestrial conditions before the PT boundary were of a cold wet, low lying nature. These low-lying regions were susceptible to marine transgressions, not the place for burgeoning human settlements. One would expect human settlements to have being in the less vulnerable regions with eco-systems similar to ones where mammals currently thrive ie where angiosperms are a prevalent part of the eco-system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2016 6:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Coyote, posted 11-05-2016 6:42 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 592 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2016 6:53 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 590 of 1163 (793743)
11-05-2016 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by PaulK
11-05-2016 6:07 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Stromatolites still make my point. It's the correct order.
You say:" I don't know why you think that. Especially as you claim that the order of the fossil record indicates deaths rather than creation"
Obviously the order of fossilisation relates to death. There would be dead bacteria cells accumulating within hours of creation, and yet the first exoskeleton of a trilobite some time later. Generally creatures are more likely to fall to the ground and get covered by sediment when dead. Generally a live creature would squirm out of falling sediment, less likely to be buried and fossilised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2016 6:07 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by PaulK, posted 11-06-2016 2:37 AM mindspawn has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 591 of 1163 (793744)
11-05-2016 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:32 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
One would expect human settlements to have being in the less vulnerable regions with eco-systems similar to ones where mammals currently thrive ie where angiosperms are a prevalent part of the eco-system.
As has been pointed out, humans came along about 250 million years after the period you're discussing. All your wishin' and hopin' isn't going to change that.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:32 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM Coyote has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 592 of 1163 (793745)
11-05-2016 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:32 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Good point. But there are pre-flood archosaurs. Precursor to dinosaurs and modern crocodiles.
I know that basal archosaurs are precursors to dinosaurs and crocodiles, but if you are going to admit that into your explanatory scheme then ... welcome to our side. We accept your surrender.
But Creationism does predict that increasingly modern kinds will be found fossilised in ancient strata ...
On what basis does it predict this?
In addition our modern terrestrial environment was not a prevalent ecosystem in pre-flood times. ie generally the more prevalent terrestrial conditions before the PT boundary were of a cold wet, low lying nature. These low-lying regions were susceptible to marine transgressions, not the place for burgeoning human settlements. One would expect human settlements to have being in the less vulnerable regions with eco-systems similar to ones where mammals currently thrive ie where angiosperms are a prevalent part of the eco-system.
I didn't mention human settlements. I did mention lobsters and trilobites, were all the lobsters living on mountains before the Flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:32 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 593 of 1163 (793746)
11-05-2016 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Coyote
11-05-2016 6:42 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
There have been many ooparts. Out of place artifacts, signs of early humans before the PT boundary. Scientists tend to steer clear of studying these because their careers are normally based on the status quo and they would be belittled and their academic status undermined if they give support to radical theories which undermine the status quo.
Human footprints have been found before the PT boundary. A bell was found in Carboniferous coal. The Narmer tablets record dinosaurs with humans in early Egyptian society. as do Sumerian seals. Anyone is able to discover this information in the internet, I wont even bother posting the links here because you guys obviously will not accept those OOPARTS (out of place artifacts) as scientific evidence.
But my main point is that vast areas of earth have not been studied for early mammals, including humans. The environment where mammals would be would be similar to today, because these rare pre-flood creatures now dominate in a world of angiosperms, So the pre-flood region we should be studying should be one where angiosperms existed before the PT boundary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Coyote, posted 11-05-2016 6:42 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2016 6:55 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 595 by Coyote, posted 11-05-2016 7:03 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 596 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2016 7:11 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 597 by edge, posted 11-05-2016 7:13 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 598 by jar, posted 11-05-2016 7:13 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 600 by Theodoric, posted 11-05-2016 7:17 PM mindspawn has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 594 of 1163 (793747)
11-05-2016 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
I wont even bother posting the links here ...
Well, I'm convinced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 595 of 1163 (793748)
11-05-2016 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Sorry, your oopsies are nonsense.
First, to have humans traipsing around some 250+ million years ago would mean that they were present in all time periods since. The evidence shows that's not the case.
Second, the fossil record shows a pretty good progression from early primates to modern humans over the last 60 or so million years.
But what you would ask us to believe is that these huge masses of evidence are all wrong because of a few dubious finds. That's pretty silly.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:36 PM Coyote has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 596 of 1163 (793749)
11-05-2016 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Mindspawn writes:
There have been many ooparts. Out of place artifacts, signs of early humans before the PT boundary.
Ok, lets see them.
Scientists tend to steer clear of studying these because their careers are normally based on the status quo and they would be belittled and their academic status undermined if they give support to radical theories which undermine the status quo.
Bollox. This is an excuse for having nothing.
Human footprints have been found before the PT boundary. A bell was found in Carboniferous coal. The Narmer tablets record dinosaurs with humans in early Egyptian society. as do Sumerian seals. Anyone is able to discover this information in the internet, I wont even bother posting the links here because you guys obviously will not accept those OOPARTS (out of place artifacts) as scientific evidence.
So you just thought it enough to spout crap and then run away? Let's have them, one at a time and we explain why you're wrong so that you won't need to keep making the same silly mistakes.
But my main point is that vast areas of earth have not been studied for early mammals, including humans. The environment where mammals would be would be similar to today, because these rare pre-flood creatures now dominate in a world of angiosperms, So the pre-flood region we should be studying should be one where angiosperms existed before the PT boundary.
Why are you wasting time talking bollox on an internet forum when you could be out there digging up this fantastic missing evidence that science in its blind conformaty has not thought to look for?
So you've still got nothing....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 597 of 1163 (793750)
11-05-2016 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Human footprints have been found before the PT boundary.
Please provide evidence for this.
A bell was found in Carboniferous coal.
Really? You believe coal miners when they tell you something?
A reference would be nice here.
The Narmer tablets record dinosaurs with humans in early Egyptian society. as do Sumerian seals. Anyone is able to discover this information in the internet, I wont even bother posting the links here because you guys obviously will not accept those OOPARTS (out of place artifacts) as scientific evidence.
Actually, the reason is that we have done it before. They all are either of dubious chain of custody or have otherwise been refuted. Most are old stories from a more naive time.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 598 of 1163 (793751)
11-05-2016 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
mindspawn writes:
There have been many ooparts. Out of place artifacts, signs of early humans before the PT boundary. Scientists tend to steer clear of studying these because their careers are normally based on the status quo and they would be belittled and their academic status undermined if they give support to radical theories which undermine the status quo.
Human footprints have been found before the PT boundary. A bell was found in Carboniferous coal. The Narmer tablets record dinosaurs with humans in early Egyptian society. as do Sumerian seals. Anyone is able to discover this information in the internet, I wont even bother posting the links here because you guys obviously will not accept those OOPARTS (out of place artifacts) as scientific evidence.
I know that Creationist sites make such claims but so far have never presented the evidence or explained why things like the bell are even out of place.
Creationists have had many decades to produce some evidence but have NEVER been able to do so. Oh sure, they do well at the Carny side show but never make it into the main tent.
mindspawn writes:
But my main point is that vast areas of earth have not been studied for early mammals, including humans. The environment where mammals would be would be similar to today, because these rare pre-flood creatures now dominate in a world of angiosperms, So the pre-flood region we should be studying should be one where angiosperms existed before the PT boundary.
So why have no Creationists ever looked there?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:52 PM jar has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 599 of 1163 (793752)
11-05-2016 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Dr Adequate
11-05-2016 6:53 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Its not surrender, its obvious that kinds can adapt rapidly by changing allele frequencies. Even the original wolf-like kind has developed into a number of breeds like bears, wolves, huskies, poodles etc. This is an obvious fact accepted by many creationists. This diversity is proven, but does not involve major changes to the DNA structure as per evolutionary theory.
You say: "But Creationism does predict that increasingly modern kinds will be found fossilized in ancient strata ."
Creationism claims that creatures are relatively unchanged since creation. So logically we would expect to find more and more modern creatures reflected in the fossil record. something that is happening.
Regarding lobsters, it's possible that the prevailing environment during the Cambrian was too sulfuric or too anoxic for them. Its hard to find fossils from niche environments, easier from common environments. Who knows , maybe one day we will find a Cambrian fossil haven of lobsters. Or even modern trilobites currently living in a niche sulfuric or anoxic environment. Niche environments can become common. common environments can become niche. Crustaceans like Canadaspis and Perspicaris do exist in the Cambrian so with my view of rapid adaptation maybe there was significant adaptation. Unfortunately we do not have the DNA to prove biological relationships from the Cambrian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2016 6:53 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2016 9:49 PM mindspawn has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 600 of 1163 (793753)
11-05-2016 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
All bullshit when looked at objectively and scientifically. Why do you think you only find this crap on fringe, nonscientific websites.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:41 PM Theodoric has replied

  
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