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Author | Topic: The 2016 United States Presidential Election | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
A week or so ago I said that I stood behind Trump because he won the election fair and square and deserved to be given a chance to carry out his vision. I've reconsidered. I'm still opposed to the "#NotMyPresident" movement, ... Hope you and yours had a happy thanksgiving. Now that things have settled down a bit, we see two things: (1) Trump is making horrid choices for his cabinet, and (2) There WAS election fraud, some more blatant than others:
quote: Election fraud perpetuated by the election officials, not the voters. They were just stupid enough to get caught, forgetting to pad the number of voters to match. How many more did this and did cover their tampering? The only way to know for sure is with a complete vote audit and recount for the State of Wisconsin. Two groups have filed to have the ballots recounted, one is the Green Party:
quote: Then there is Michigan and Pennsylvania where there are campaigns underway to raise money and volunteers to be monitors, again by the Green Party:
quote: quote: The money keeps pouring in, showing a vast dissatisfaction with the election results. This seems a more proper way to deal with the results than protesting #notmypresident. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Green Party presidential nominee Jill Stein is pushing for vote recounts in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, three traditionally Democratic states where Donald Trump did much better than expected on Nov. 8. And donors pitched in to fund them, surpassing a $2 million goal in just hours. The money keeps pouring in, showing a vast dissatisfaction with the election results. This seems a more proper way to deal with the results than protesting #notmypresident. This will drag on for many months and in the courts for longer. By then Trump will have been sworn in and will be in the Oval Office. Only impeachment could remove him and I doubt the Republican House will go there. You can bet the Republican Senate would never convict. Donald Trump will be our next President until removed by the congress or, in four years, by the voters.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This will drag on for many months ... Actually there is a time limit for the recounts to be finished, which are all before the electoral college meets.
... and in the courts for longer. ... For what? to recount the recounts? At least Jill Stein is attempting to return integrity to our elections. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Actually there is a time limit for the recounts to be finished, which are all before the electoral college meets. I believe the hard date for this is December 13th which is six days before the electoral college actually carries out the voting function. There will be a soft deadline somewhat before this date because states won't want to futz around with having no electors ready on the due date. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
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Faith responds to me:
quote: Yes, and we wish you would stop. You need to pay attention to the information and stop confusing the fact that you are being contradicted with some form of personal attack. Alex Jones is not a source. James O'Keefe is not a source. They are quite literally lying to you. Their information is wrong. Even when they try to tell you something true, it is corrupted by lies. Notice your confusion over election fraud, thinking that it was voter fraud. This is not by accident. Alex Jones is deliberately lying to you to make you think there is some sort of threat of voters "stealing" an election, and thus the only way to "protect" the election is to engage in actual fraud such as Voter ID, purging of the rolls, making you think that people are coming from other countries to vote, etc. It is a deliberate attempt to deceive you, Faith. You need to pay attention to the information and stop confusing the fact that you are being contradicted with some form of personal attack.
quote: So when someone points out that O'Keefe has been jailed for his actions, that's "character assassination"? When we show you the evidence that you are being lied to, that's "character assassination"? Are you honestly claiming that when someone is deliberately lying to you, you don't want to be told because that would make the liar look bad? That it is inappropriate to point out frauds lest you think less of them?
quote: And I didn't contradict her. What I said was that you are confusing what Harris is talking about, election fraud, with what Jones wants you to think, voter fraud. They are not the same thing. Jones knows this and he is deliberately trying to make you confused about the two.
quote: No, not "OK." This is not simply a question of the label we use to describe what is going on. They are two vastly different things. Jaywalking and murder are not the same thing and it is not merely a question of words that separates them. The things that lead to voter fraud will have no effect upon election fraud and vice versa. If you are truly concerned about the integrity of elections, then you would be doing everything that Democrats are demanding be done: Get rid of Voter ID laws...they do nothing but suppress the vote and specifically target the young, the poor, and those who aren't white. But hey, those demographics tend to vote for the liberals, so it's not a problem, right? So when you try to blow this off by pretending it's just a question of words, you show that you aren't actually sincere in your claims, Faith. You belie an agenda that seeks to destroy the will of the people. You show to be precisely in the Paul Weyrich camp:
This is the same Weyrich who started the "Religious Right" specifically and precisely because Bob Jones University lost its tax exempt status over its racial discrimination. You are aligning yourself with racists and white supremacists, Faith. But wait...that's "character assassination," right? How dare you be told about the company you keep lest you take a look at what they're peddling and reconsider the information you are being fed.
quote: That's election fraud, Faith. How does Voter ID stop that? How does purging the voter rolls stop that? How does voter intimidation stop that? How does Trump's lawsuit to invalidate the early voters in Nevada stop that? How does Trump's whining about recounts stop that? How does disenfranchising voters stop that? If you care about what Harris is talking about, why are you complaining about voter fraud as if that were a thing? Again, there were over a billion votes cast between 2000 and 2014 and only 38 documented cases of voter fraud. Most by Republicans. But that doesn't alter an election. It is nearly impossible to alter an election through voter fraud. And yet, all your sources are pushing for tactics to combat voter fraud that do nothing but result in election fraud. And yet, here you are buying their sob story regarding a potential source of election fraud because that means you'll trust them when they tell you that voter fraud is a real problem and thus need to support those tactics. They're trusting that you won't pay attention to the information, Faith. They're trusting that you'll claim that anybody who contradicts you is personally attacking you. They're trusting that you'll insist that anybody who calls them out is engaging in "character assassination." You are being lied to, Faith, and you are so wrapped up in the lie that you are doing the very thing you accuse everybody else of. Your response is completely unrelated to the information but is essentially nothing but character assassination.
quote: And it's all a lie. That is the point you are steadfastly refusing to come to terms with. Project Veritas is a lie. Everything they put out is fraudulent. O'Keefe was convicted for his fraudulent actions for PV.
quote: And it didn't happen. They lied to you, Faith. You need to pay attention to the information and stop confusing the fact that you are being contradicted with some form of personal attack.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
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RAZD writes:
quote: And with that, we know that you're not being serious. What is this "Democrat Party" of which you speak? There's a "Democratic Party," but I've never heard of this "Democrat Party." If you want to be taken seriously, you might want to consider behaving seriously.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Professor Weighs In On Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's Uninformed Voter Comment : NPR
quote: First few paragraph from the cite:
quote: Go to source page to read more. Moose
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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In reference to MARC LAMONT HILL: Yawn.
What an utterly irrelevant remark that served no purpose other than attempt to misrepresent what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar actually said. There is a vast difference between telling people they cannot vote and saying maybe we should not encourage some folk to vote. Actually we should not encourage some folk to drive, do surgery, have children, vote ...
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
There is a vast difference between telling people they cannot vote and saying maybe we should not encourage some folk to vote. True. And of course, ignorance of the issues is curable. Kareem mentioned that the ultimate problem was folks not doing the minimal amount of work to become informed on the issues and called that ignorance a disservice to democracy. No question that he is right about that. Nonetheless, what constitutes being informed enough to cast a vote is an extremely low hurdle. You don't have to be informed on every issue in order to cast a vote. Accordingly there is room for having a nuanced discussion about the issue of who should be encouraged to vote. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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NN writes: Accordingly there is room for having a nuanced discussion about the issue of who should be encouraged to vote. I'd suggest changing the emphasis slightly. I think it's time to have a discussion about the issue of being a responsible citizen. Surely there is enough time in a basic education schedule to teach US born kids at least as much about the responsibilities of citizenship as we require from those applying for citizenship.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: It would seem to be the best way to "make America great again". I think it's time to have a discussion about the issue of being a responsible citizen. Our culture tells us that success is about money,power, and fame. Responsibility is never mentioned as much as it used to be.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ramoss Member (Idle past 641 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Not 100% correct. There is also the 25th amendment, which states a president can be removed if mentally not fit for office. So, there are two legal avenues for congress to remove Trump if he keeps on following his current path. Not being fit to serve , and actions that can allow for impeachment.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Disagreeing with the left, and failing to do things their way, is not a sign of mental illness nor is it a "high crime and misdemeanor."
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is no left in the US today; only the far right and the totally batshit crazy.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
There is also the 25th amendment... The reason for the 25th Amendment is for when a President is incapacitated due to illness or injury. Trying to use this to reverse having elected a flaming asshole to the office would not be in keeping with the intent of the amendment as Congress and the states resolved. Impeachment or losing the next election are the only ways we will be rid of Trump in the next 8 years. So here is a scenario. Let's say the Wisconsin recount comes up with a different result. Not very likely, but we can suppose. The Republican's and Trump's attorneys, not being as dense a group as we might like, will come up with some reason, any reason, to challenge the result in court. For all the immediacy involved a good group of smart legal vultures could tie this up in court until Dec. 19 when the electors are to meet and vote in each state. You could have an electoral challenge with two slates of electors voting and sending their separate votes to the Senate. In this case the House of Representatives would decide which slate of electors to certify. We can all figure how that would come out. All this crap about recounts may be a good thing to base some future voting legislation upon but it will not, should not, affect the presently determined and conceded election. Trump will be our next president which means that extra vigilance will be required on all our parts to keep that shithead and his deplorables from overstepping his "mandate". Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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