...but this is also how militarization creep occurs: making it more "normal" to see military in everyday life, ...
Yes, that's what I was trying to bring attention to.
Pre-WWII German history is frightening for its implications about what can be made to seem "normal". It is remarkable how quickly the German people adjusted to life with Hitler's atrocities. For example, German courts had little problem conforming their rulings to Nazi realities after the Night of the Long Knives (a 1934 Nazi purge that murdered hundreds). We should ask ourselves certain questions now while they're still hypothetical: Would we speak out against laws restricting the rights of Muslims or illegal aliens. Would we have the courage to hide them in our homes while the police are breaking down doors?
So far the main clues I've seen are to fraud by the Democrats.
Like the clue that of the fictitious votes so far detected most of them are for Trump? Or were you talking about the clue that....erm...erm...some guy on the far right said so?
What you've done is take an irrelevant case and insinuated that it proves something about this election, which it doesn't.
So if Hillary had hired a convicted thief for her 2016 campaign; someone who was on trial for ten counts of election fraud, you'd think this was irrelevant would you? When that staffer was found guilty of having committed election fraud in the last election cycle...You wouldn't add this to your 'clues' that the Democrats were fraudsters?
I hope the avenues of fraud can be discussed and controlled or eliminated in the future. It ought to be a major discussion in both parties.
If you have to keep electronic voting, then they should be regulated, right? There should be regulations that transcend the State, either independent boards or Federal.
Here are the States that don't require their machines to meet Federal standards (as of 2009) in certifying or testing their voting machines, and how they voted in this election:
Alaska (R) Arkansas (R) Florida (R) Hawaii (D) Maine (D) Mississippi (R) Montana (R) Nebraska (R) New Hampshire (D) New Jersey (D) Oklahoma (R) Tennessee (R) Vermont (D) West Virginia (R)
Perhaps these States should be the initial focus in the discussion?
============== I don't know what Gregg Phillips' politics is, but he claims to have counted three million noncitizens on the rolls of 184 million registered voters. This is what has to be further checked over the next few months.
is absolutely nonthreatening: a bunch of guys in camo running around on the field. NOTHING LIKE THE GENUINE FASCIST DISPLAYS OF MILITARY IN FULL DRESS UNIFORM GOOSE-STEPPING IN FORMATION.
Again, all this occurred during Obama's second term. The Left was expecting Hillary to win, not Trump, so trying to tie the paranoid fascist interpretation this to the Right is pretty sleazy.
ALSO, for years now I've seen the PARANOID RIGHT FEARING THAT THE LEFT IS GOING TO PULL A POLICE STATE ON US ON SOME TRUMPED UP EXCUSE, THROW US INTO PRISON CAMPS ALREADY PUT IN PLACE BY FEMA AND ALL THAT STUFF. That would make more sense in the actual context, if there's any sense to be made of it at all, than all this stuff about a bunch of guys in camo running around a football field, and trying to hang the ridiculous paranoid misinterpretation on the Right looks to me like standard Leftist tactics, Machiavellian to the core, without a shred of integrity.
Consider what's going on in Europe. THAT's the trend, not deporting illegals (as if that's the same thing as sending Jews to concenttration camps anyway. WHERE IS YOUR HEAD?) In Germany it's the German citizens who are being forced out of their homes so that the Muslim refugees can move in. In Italy -- have you seen that sad story and the video? A poor old guy who runs a small hotel has been forced to give it up to the Muslim refugees. THAT is what is on the agenda for America, if Hillary got elected. Obama has already started the trend, she would push it further. We aren't quite as vulnerable as the poor Europeans who have been disarmed for years and are easy prey to police action. If somehow they still manage to steal this election we could be seeing the growth of the Leftist police state, all rationalized as necessary to stop the fascist Right, which is an invention of Leftist lying strategies like Alinsky's rules all designed to vilify the opponent by hook or by crook. Hillary would have moved to take our guns away too. Then we too would be vulnerable to the police throwing us out of our houses and bringing in aliens. Boy have they got you brainwashed. When they come to get ME or any other right winger will you stand up for US?
the claim has been that she discovered five states stolen for Hillary.
It is easy to find this claim with an internet search. What is more of a challenge is finding a good reason to believe it if you are even the least bit skeptical about accepting things simply because you read them on the internet.
but he claims to have counted three million noncitizens on the rolls of 184 million registered voters.
Why do you give this claim any credence?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
quote:The Clinton campaign suddenly cancelled their fireworks; and they did this EARLY in the morning...particularly with the Democrats...{they'll} hold back results for hours and hours and hours...what they're doing when they hold back these dense areas is they're basically figuring out...how much they need in order to tip the thing...Last night they were holding back (and it was ridiculous), they were holding back Detroit, Milwaukee...Pittsburgh...and Mantua...Mantua has nine wards - what the heck? They can't count nine wards in six hours? They were holding it back...Trump was mowing it down in the rural areas and they didn't have enough...they couldn't come up with enough... --Bev Harris
The issue is that I don't see the evidence that suggests this was the Democrats. Maybe it was, but I can't see how, for instance, in Detroit, the Democrats alone have the power to 'hold back' the results, or cause the results to have to be 'held back' if that's what happened. The Republicans may have been 'storming it', but it came down to 10k votes. Since it was expected Hilary to do well in Wayne County, they had motivation to affect the result there, still lose it, but hopefully gain just enough votes to tip the State over to (R). The numbers for Wayne County don't look all that different from 2012 other than a swing towards the Republicans.
2012: 809,660 votes between the top two 595,846 to Obama 74% 213,814 to Romney 26%
2016: 748,437 between the top two 519,444 to Clinton 69% 228,993 to Trump 31%
If shenanigans occurred, and maybe it did, these numbers don't look particularly suspect.
I don't know what Gregg Phillips' politics is, but he claims to have counted three million noncitizens on the rolls of 184 million registered voters.
He's a corrupt right winger. While working in government there was a big stink about him helping out business partners and friends get jobs and contracts. He awarded a $875,000 government contract to a business, and when the heat from his ethical problems got too much, went to work for that business. (Houston Chronicle.
But it's OK, he's a Jesus Freak so I guess his world is gold to you.
Consider what's going on in Europe. THAT's the trend, not deporting illegals (as if that's the same thing as sending Jews to concenttration camps anyway.
That would not be the appropriate comparison. The appropriate comparison is the scapegoating of Jews as the source of Germany's problems, and the blaming of immigrants, legal and otherwise for current woes and placing restrictions, constitutional or otherwise on them.
No, not the same thing. But before the Germany got around to putting Jews in camps the Nazi issued hundreds of decrees restriction various phases of their lives including excluding them from certain occupations, admission to schools, placing obstacles to their practicing their dietary requirements, operating a business, etc.
A poor old guy who runs a small hotel has been forced to give it up to the Muslim refugees. THAT is what is on the agenda for America, if Hillary got elected.
You say this based on what exactly?
Yikes: I see that you enter full wingnut mode below. No commentary needed:
If somehow they still manage to steal this election we could be seeing the growth of the Leftist police state, all rationalized as necessary to stop the fascist Right, which is an invention of Leftist lying strategies like Alinsky's rules all designed to vilify the opponent by hook or by crook.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
quote:
...the claim has been that she discovered five states stolen for Hillary. I can't find it on her site
Probably because it isn't there. Seriously, the front page carries articles going back as far as July, and the second page has articles from July or earlier.
Do you really think she made that claim months before the election ? Is it really too hard for you to look at the dates on the articles and work out that it would have to be on the front page ?
Consider what's going on in Europe. THAT's the trend, not deporting illegals (as if that's the same thing as sending Jews to concenttration camps anyway.
That would not be the appropriate comparison. The appropriate comparison is the scapegoating of Jews as the source of Germany's problems, and the blaming of immigrants, legal and otherwise for current woes and placing restrictions, constitutional or otherwise on them.
No, not the same thing. But before the Germany got around to putting Jews in camps the Nazi issued hundreds of decrees restriction various phases of their lives including excluding them from certain occupations, admission to schools, placing obstacles to their practicing their dietary requirements, operating a business, etc.
Yes, this captures the kinds of things I was alluding to.
If I could comment on a few recent rather wild messages that have been posted, I don't see any sense in scapegoating the right or the left, and I am not blaming the right. Republican successes and the election of Trump are expressions of social, economic and political forces within the country, not their cause, just as was the success of the Nazi party within Germany in the 1932 elections that resulted in the compromise appointment of Hitler as Chancellor. There are no jackbooted goosestepping storm troopers in our streets, but that's not the point. The point isn't that we *are* the Germany of the 1930's but that we're exposed to forces similar to the ones that led Germany down a road to ultimate annihilation. Democracies in Europe face similar problems.
Trump does play an active role in promoting the comparison to pre-WWII Germany and Hitler. Saying things such as threatening to arrest your political opponent will do that. If one were to ask oneself which president of the past 220 years would be most likely to declare martial law and eventually give himself dictatorial powers, which one would it be? Jimmy Carter, right? Just kidding. It's Trump, of course.
Consider what's going on in Europe. THAT's the trend, not deporting illegals (as if that's the same thing as sending Jews to concenttration camps anyway. WHERE IS YOUR HEAD?) In Germany it's the German citizens who are being forced out of their homes so that the Muslim refugees can move in. In Italy -- have you seen that sad story and the video? A poor old guy who runs a small hotel has been forced to give it up to the Muslim refugees. THAT is what is on the agenda for America, if Hillary got elected. Obama has already started the trend, she would push it further.
America has been accepting refugees for decades now, in case you missed it. I had a good friend in college who was a Bosnian refugee. The city where I live has thousands of African refugees:
They have only enriched our community. No one is being forced out of their homes. Sorry, but all you are expressing is xenophobia. In the US, we are all immigrants except for the indigenous people who we continue to give the short end of the stick.
We aren't quite as vulnerable as the poor Europeans who have been disarmed for years and are easy prey to police action. If somehow they still manage to steal this election we could be seeing the growth of the Leftist police state, all rationalized as necessary to stop the fascist Right, which is an invention of Leftist lying strategies like Alinsky's rules all designed to vilify the opponent by hook or by crook. Hillary would have moved to take our guns away too. Then we too would be vulnerable to the police throwing us out of our houses and bringing in aliens. Boy have they got you brainwashed. When they come to get ME or any other right winger will you stand up for US?
For 8 years we heard how Obama was going to take away our guns. Did it ever happen? At this point, these claims are nothing more than lies meant to scare people on the right.
Also, I bet you are against the Black Lives Matter movement, even though it is a case of people fighting back against police action. Why is that? Is it just the wrong skin color?
For 8 years we heard how Obama was going to take away our guns. Did it ever happen? At this point, these claims are nothing more than lies meant to scare people on the right.
I heard a story the other day on NPR about fake news sites. They interviewed a major player in that industry and here is some of the things he said
quote:During the run-up to the presidential election, fake news really took off. "It was just anybody with a blog can get on there and find a big, huge Facebook group of kind of rabid Trump supporters just waiting to eat up this red meat that they're about to get served," Coler says. "It caused an explosion in the number of sites. I mean, my gosh, the number of just fake accounts on Facebook exploded during the Trump election.
quote:... wrote the story in the "Denver Guardian" that an FBI agent who leaked Clinton emails was killed. Coler says that over 10 days the site got 1.6 million views. He says stories like this work because they fit into existing right-wing conspiracy theories.
"The people wanted to hear this," he says. "So all it took was to write that story. Everything about it was fictional: the town, the people, the sheriff, the FBI guy. And then ... our social media guys kind of go out and do a little dropping it throughout Trump groups and Trump forums and boy it spread like wildfire."
A couple months ago, my mom was incensed at a story she saw on Facebook where Barak and Michelle were saluting the flag with their left hand. I was like "Mom, that's fake." and she just couldn't see how something like that could be faked. I went in the bathroom and took a picture of myself in the mirror saluting with my right hand... that convinced her the article was fake.
I have seen a lot of that kind of crap lately, but didn't realize how big it was
Here is a list of fake news sites to watch out for:
Not sure if any of these are on Faith's list of sources, but it is clear that the right eats these up. It is big business.
It's like my signature quote
quote:"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe."
The funny thing the guy on the NPR story said was
quote:Coler says his writers have tried to write fake news for liberals but they just never take the bait.
HBD
Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
Consider what's going on in Europe. THAT's the trend, not deporting illegals (as if that's the same thing as sending Jews to concenttration camps anyway. WHERE IS YOUR HEAD?) In Germany it's the German citizens who are being forced out of their homes so that the Muslim refugees can move in. In Italy -- have you seen that sad story and the video? A poor old guy who runs a small hotel has been forced to give it up to the Muslim refugees. THAT is what is on the agenda for America, if Hillary got elected. Obama has already started the trend, she would push it further. We aren't quite as vulnerable as the poor Europeans who have been disarmed for years and are easy prey to police action. If somehow they still manage to steal this election we could be seeing the growth of the Leftist police state, all rationalized as necessary to stop the fascist Right, which is an invention of Leftist lying strategies like Alinsky's rules all designed to vilify the opponent by hook or by crook. Hillary would have moved to take our guns away too. Then we too would be vulnerable to the police throwing us out of our houses and bringing in aliens. Boy have they got you brainwashed. When they come to get ME or any other right winger will you stand up for US?
What you say is going on in Europe is not going on. No one in Germany is thrown out of their homes to make way for asylum seekers. In Italy hotels are being used as reception centres; but these are not places siezed by police. The owners are paid for housing refugees. Not that this is happy situation. Some of the organisations running these centres seem to be linked to organised crime and are under investigation. They are paid per refugee; but much of this money intended for housing and feeding them is alledgely being diverted into mafiosos pockets. Since more refugees means more pilfered money; they are actually incentivised to delay their asylum applications and keep them there as long as possible. Not a pretty situation, but not the one you describe.
On the subject of Europeans being disarmed for years; gun ownership laws are different in every country in Europe. Some have very liberal laws (like here in Czech Republic) but ownership rates remain low. Others have much higher rates of gun ownership. Germany has stricter gun laws, but actual rates of gun ownership are much higher. In Switzerland about half the adult population owns a gun; in Sweden there are more than 2 million guns legally registered in private ownership.
Europe is quite a diverse and interesting place. You should come visit.
If Trump really has knowledge that voter fraud was committed by Democrats on a massive scale, why has he mounted a legal challenge to the recount efforts in Michigan?
That question is actually just a statement of what we already know: that Trump frequently makes completely false claims, including ones he knows are false. He just can't seem to help himself. He has a finely honed instinct for what his followers want to hear, and if they want to hear it then he enthusiastically and confidently says it, true or not. If he really knew the Democrats had committed massive voter fraud in Michigan he would be vigorously supporting the recount effort.
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