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Author Topic:   Be afraid. Be very afraid.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 66 (795464)
12-13-2016 11:34 AM


From Reuters.
quote:
The U.S. Energy Department said on Tuesday it will not comply with a request from President-elect Donald Trump's Energy Department transition team for the names of people who have worked on climate change and the professional society memberships of lab workers.
And so il Donald appoints the man who said he will abolish the US Energy Depart as its next head; the idiot Rick Perry.
Sure is good to see that the purge of all the same old faces is going on and that instead of having to worry about lobbyists we just put their bosses in charge of stuff.
Edited by jar, : b ----> p appaling spallin proff readin two

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2016 12:50 PM jar has not replied
 Message 8 by Taq, posted 12-13-2016 5:49 PM jar has not replied
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 2 of 66 (795472)
12-13-2016 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-13-2016 11:34 AM


Whatever. Since third party voters have made it clear with their protest votes that they would rather see eight wingers dismantle everything than vote strategically, ot does not matter anymore.
We lost. Hail Trump!
My partner and I will be laying low for the next 4 years. Thank goodneas neither one of us is middle eastern or mexican.

If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 12-13-2016 11:34 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-13-2016 2:44 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 66 (795488)
12-13-2016 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by coffee_addict
12-13-2016 12:50 PM


Relax, Lammy, nobody is coming after you. I'm the one who should be most disappointed in Trump because he refuses to do anything about gay marriage, which is an attack on Christians. And the only Mexicans Trump is going after are those with known criminal records who are here illegally. If he's going to limit refugee immigration why should they have to lie low?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by xongsmith, posted 12-13-2016 3:05 PM Faith has replied
 Message 6 by Taq, posted 12-13-2016 4:14 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-13-2016 5:34 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 12-14-2016 4:06 AM Faith has replied
 Message 56 by Genomicus, posted 12-17-2016 5:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 4 of 66 (795491)
12-13-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-13-2016 2:44 PM


Faith posits:
gay marriage, which is an attack on Christians...
but you do know that Jesus was gay, don't you?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-13-2016 2:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 12-13-2016 3:14 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 66 (795493)
12-13-2016 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by xongsmith
12-13-2016 3:05 PM


And what mad revisionist convinced you of that?
It's SO funny that the church thrived for 2000 years without such revisionist doctrines as yours.
Sigh.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 6 of 66 (795495)
12-13-2016 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-13-2016 2:44 PM


Faith writes:
Relax, Lammy, nobody is coming after you. I'm the one who should be most disappointed in Trump because he refuses to do anything about gay marriage, which is an attack on Christians.
Is wearing a mix of polyester and cotton an attack on Judaism?

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 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-13-2016 2:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 66 (795499)
12-13-2016 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-13-2016 2:44 PM


too funny
Faith writes:
I'm the one who should be most disappointed in Trump because he refuses to do anything about gay marriage, which is an attack on Christians.
Yet more and more Christians are supporting and endorsing same sex marriages and of course it was never an attack on Christians anyway since marriage is a secular contract that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity and existed long before Christianity.
To claim otherwise is simply a total fabrication since it cannot possibly have any effect on any so called Christian marriage.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-13-2016 2:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 8 of 66 (795501)
12-13-2016 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-13-2016 11:34 AM


jar writes:
And so il Donald appoints the man who said he will abolish the US Energy Depart as its next head; the idiot Rick Perry.
Rick Perry proclaimed that Texas should secede from the Union just a few years ago. Now he is rewarded with cabinet position. Even anti-American secessionists are welcomed into the Trump administration. Colored me surprised.

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 Message 1 by jar, posted 12-13-2016 11:34 AM jar has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 9 of 66 (795504)
12-14-2016 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-13-2016 2:44 PM


Faith writes:
quote:
gay marriage, which is an attack on Christians
Huh? How does anybody else's marriage affect Christians?
You didn't think you as a Christian had a right to determine other people's marriages, did you? Do you routinely find yourself defining yourself based on whether or not other people are married? Can you explain why you think your life is dependent in any one on someone else's marriage?
Hint: Business regulations and anti-discrimination laws have nothing to do with it.
Bonus hint: By this logic, interracial marriage is an attack on Christians as is marriage by Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, or anybody else who doesn't follow your religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-13-2016 2:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 12-14-2016 4:23 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 66 (795505)
12-14-2016 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rrhain
12-14-2016 4:06 AM


I'm surprised that after all the discussion about this you'd not know what I meant. There have been five known incidents -- there may be more by now but I haven't heard about them -- of businesses being sued because the owners said that because of their Christian belief, based on the Bible, they could not in good conscience do anything that would imply the acceptance of gay marriage. The customer can buy a cake but the owners can't make a custom cake. The photographer can't take wedding photos; They can buy all the flowers they want, but the florist can't design a personalized layout for a gay wedding. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, this is how a Christian sees the situation. The law legalizing gay marriage has brought this about. Gays don't have to go to Christians for their wedding supplies, but in these five cases they did. Not to an atheist business where there wouldn't be a problem. Also not to a Muslim baker or photographer or florist, and not to a Jewish baker or photographer or florist, but to a Christian baker, photographer and florist. The others would have to decline as well if they are true to their religion, but in any case the Christian must do so.
abe: Since jar has argued that some Christians don't feel this way I need to say I'm talking about strict Bible-believing Christians.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 12-14-2016 5:45 AM Faith has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(4)
Message 11 of 66 (795506)
12-14-2016 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
12-14-2016 4:23 AM


Faith writes:
The customer can buy a cake but the owners can't make a custom cake. The photographer can't take wedding photos; They can buy all the flowers they want, but the florist can't design a personalized layout for a gay wedding. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, this is how a Christian sees the situation.
This seems pretty silly though, to me Faith. "Oh my goodness, Lord I can't possibly condone the eating of this cake for it is clearly for a gay wedding as it says Adam and Steve not Adam and Eve."
Faith writes:
Since jar has argued that some Christians don't feel this way I need to say I'm talking about strict Bible-believing Christians.
To be honest Faith in this instance I have to say that as a bible believing Christian I don't feel this way though.
I make toys and sometimes genuine witches want me to make toys, they may even use the handmade wands I make for witchcraft but as far as I'm concerned I just make the toy.
Should we also burn all of the cash we receive because it has been handled by sinners?
What about a cake that says, "Adam and Eve" but you don't know they are fornicators? Does that mean we risk offending the Lord simply because we are too obtuse to realise that a lot of those cakes will be made for rampant fornicators? Chances are a lot of those cakes went to people guilty of pretty bad sins. Does that mean those cake makers have endorsed those sins?
Or does it just mean the cake makers are guilty of baking a cake, like most sane people would infer?
So for me, I just can't see how a gay marriage would adversely affect me, and to force a law "not" to be able to....isn't that basically tantamount to saying; "obey my beliefs even if you don't have my beliefs!".
For me that's dangerous territory because the extreme muslims pretty much argue the same thing; "Agree with our law, OR ELSE!" (ad baculum).
So on this one we probably can't agree. In the U.K, a married couple didn't want gay people staying in their hotel but that is pretty prejudiced considering all of the straight fornication they likely wouldn't have had a problem with. You can't single out gay people like that, IMHO - that isn't a loving message. The key is to treat them with the same respect as everyone else, then we can know we have truly please the Lord.
"let He who is without sin cast the first stone".
(By the way, hello to Lam and Rrhain, I haven't heard those posters for a long old time.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 12-14-2016 4:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 12-14-2016 6:09 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 12-14-2016 8:03 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 66 (795509)
12-14-2016 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
12-14-2016 5:45 AM


Whether you think it is silly or not, all these business owners independently understood their Christian duty was to refuse to do something that would validate gay marriage. I know exactly why they came to the conclusion they did, it's open and shut in my mind. I'm surprised you don't get it.
Do you also think that all those Christans who were slaughtered in the Middle Ages were silly for refusing to affirm the docrine of transubstantion?
What does this have to do with what OTHERS think? It's entirely about the business owners' own conscience based on their understanding of God's law.
This isdn't about "sinners." The objection is very specific: it's to the event of gay marriage and nothing else. It's about being required to do something that very specifically endorses a gay wedding, by designing a personalized wedding cake for instance, or a floral arrangement. It's about gay marriage, not about the sin of homosexuality, and there is no restriction on what goods and services are available except any specific custom requirement for a gay wedding, which makes it a personal commitment which is what engages te conscience. One's conscience isn't engaged in serving anybody in any other way.
Well I'm sorry you don't get it. It's quite clear to those who were put in that position and it's clear to me.
This "forces" nothing on anybody. At most it means they might consider respecting the Christisn's conscience and go to a nonChristian business, an inconvenience but nothing worse than that. Otherwise they can sue people out of business, and if the business can't come p with the money, get them put in prison.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 12-14-2016 5:45 AM mike the wiz has replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 13 of 66 (795518)
12-14-2016 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
12-14-2016 5:45 AM


Faith seems to have ignored what I saw as your most important point, the lack of consistency. To me it gives the lie to the claim that this is just about gay marriage. It's about imposing religious beliefs onto secular contexts. If religious bias is permitted to stride outside the church gate then religions would once more engage in battle. Religious peace is one of the blessings of separation of church and state, and businesses are not churches.
The dangers of religious strife do not worry the religious right because in their minds this is a Christian nation where Christianity should dominate all affairs, and therefore there is no need for separation of church and state. The hypocrisy matches that of the Puritans who escaped religious persecution in the Old World to practice it in the New. That separation of church and state protects all religions seems to have escaped their notice. Christians can no more be discriminated against for their religious beliefs than any other religion or lack thereof. Once exceptions begin we're all in danger, religious or not.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 14 of 66 (795521)
12-14-2016 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
12-14-2016 6:09 AM


But really you're muddying-the-water by bringing in another issue. (trannies-sub-station, or whatever it's called.
Faith writes:
e. It's about being required to do something that very specifically endorses a gay wedding,
I don't see that though necessarily. For example, a cake is made with the motive of creating a tasty cake for someone to enjoy eating. That is the motive of someone that makes a cake, so if I was a Christian I would say to myself and God before starting to sell cakes, "my motive is to make cakes, what they use them for is what they use them for, my only part is making the cake, just as a person that makes guns isn't part of murder, nor am I part of a gay wedding."
If a cake says "Adam and Steve" on it, personally I would see no reason to make that any of my business. If that cake is used for a gay wedding, perhaps if I am required to take part in the wedding that may be a different matter but what people do with that cake is really their own motive, not mine.
I call it the contamination-fallacy. For me a tool, or a cake or whatever the object, the object itself is just an object. The cake itself is just a cake like any other cake, if it says Adam and Steve to my mind that is the arrangement of letters in icing, on a cake, as usual. The "T" used for Steve is the usual "T" I would make on a cake. From my perspective, my only issue is that I would have to do the lettering, and my motive is to put lettering on a cake.
I suppose I could write a note with the cake saying, "as a Christian I dissaprove of the use of this cake for gay means." But let's face it, the recipients would just say to that, "who gives a shi*" and then bin the note. Nobody cares if a Christian made the cake, or an alien from Mars, they just want to eat the cake. Cake, cake, cake - would Jesus forbid the eating of a cake? Did Jesus reject sinners that came to Him?
Remember the pharisees accusing him of being a glutton, someone who approves of sinners by being in their company? In my opinion, I just don't see Jesus withholding the cake, Faith. ..and if I can't see Him doing it, then to my mind I can't do it or I have to be cautious if I am stepping over the line and judging people. It is not relevant what Christians think, it is relevant to me, what Christ thinks. I just don't think it would have been His style to withhold the cake. The Christian nowaday pharisees would perhaps accuse Him and say, "how can you do this Jesus?" like they did when He walked the earth.
Think about it - He never did what people expected Him to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 12-14-2016 6:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(3)
Message 15 of 66 (795523)
12-14-2016 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
12-14-2016 8:03 AM


Yeah I understand your point Percy. It's one that's on my mind always with these kind of debates because as you say where is the line drawn? The problem will always be forcing one's beliefs onto another person and I do see some inconsistency in some examples in the media, with well-meaning Christians that essentially have invented commands and ideas that just don't seem to stem from the bible. "I must do action X for Jesus"
But action X is INVENTION. They INVENT action X then tell themselves it's what God wants them to do.

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