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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1006 of 1163 (795543)
12-14-2016 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 997 by Tangle
12-14-2016 8:36 AM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
It's incorrect? I just typed "evolution" into google scholar
quote:
About 4,980,000 results (0.07 sec)
That's scholarly, peer reviewd, papers only.
5m erronious papers according to who? Mindspawn, an unqualified creationist whose only reason for taking this disingenous armchair interest is that evolution appears to conflict with a 2,000 year old primitive mythology.
Please can you explain exactly how many of those 4 980 000 results are actually proving evolution. We know what the evidence is. Fossils exist. We can interpret that evidence. The interpretation does not suggest evolution. Evolution is a superficial interpretation when the evidence of most organisms appearing fully formed suggests rather that they radiated out from niche locations when conditions were suitable.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.
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Edited by mindspawn, : Can't remember how to quote
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2016 8:36 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1016 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:49 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1020 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2016 2:55 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 1065 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 8:39 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1007 of 1163 (795545)
12-14-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1003 by PaulK
12-14-2016 1:19 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
Which particular transition do you prefer as evidence. The so-called monkey-ape transition? The whale transition? Name your favorite and let's see what evidence you have. Please keep in mind I do agree with short term adaptation into clades, some of those short term adaptations I will agree with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1003 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2016 1:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1008 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2016 2:15 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1013 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:45 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1008 of 1163 (795547)
12-14-2016 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1007 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 1:49 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
Really at this stage the point is the number of transitions supported by the fossil record. To choose one is to miss the point, although the evolution of the mammalian jaw structure is an especially good one.
But I have to ask what is the point ? You can't prove that the fossils don't exist. If you have an reasonable explanation for them you haven't offered one. And Kurt Wise is far more familiar with the evidence than you are ever likely to be. If a dedicated Young Earth Creationist, with a very good knowledge and understanding of the evidence says that transitional fossils are good evidence for evolution I think it has to be taken seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 1:49 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1015 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 2:47 PM PaulK has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1009 of 1163 (795553)
12-14-2016 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 995 by jar
12-14-2016 8:04 AM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
What Christians mock is the silly Creationists and Creationism. Christians and Christian churches have been among the most vocal and effective opponents of the perverted nonsense marketed by Creationist.
Maybe you should read Genesis Chapter 1. The first chapter in the bible:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light, and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water. 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault sky. And there was evening, and there was morningthe second day.
9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morningthe third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so. 16 God made two great lightsthe greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morningthe fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky. 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth. 23 And there was evening, and there was morningthe fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind. And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.
29 Then God said, I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the groundeverything that has the breath of life in itI give every green plant for food. And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morningthe sixth day.
See that? It's the bible. It is NOT perverted nonsense. If I see that wording as literal, surely as a Christian you would not claim I am perverted in that belief. Perverted for believing the bible as per the bible wording? I think you use a too strong word as a claimed Christian to another Christian. I do not call your non-biblical beliefs perverted and yet you call my biblical beliefs perverted. Interesting. You are indirectly calling the bible perverted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 995 by jar, posted 12-14-2016 8:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1011 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:44 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1047 by jar, posted 12-14-2016 4:20 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 1010 of 1163 (795556)
12-14-2016 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 7:54 AM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
mindspawn writes:
The evidence shows fully formed organisms suddenly appearing.
What evidence would that be?
What features in a fossil lead to the conclusion that it suddenly appeared?
The evidence contradicts the theory of evolution which theorises that organisms gradually change over time.
What evidence is that?
We just observe the fully formed organisms, but the transitionary fossils are all hidden away in niches or never even fossilised.
How do you determine if a fossil is "fully formed"?
For EVERY organism through EVERY geological period these transitions are missing.
What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as transitional? Let's make this specific. What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as being transitional between humans and a common ancestor shared with chimps?
If you can't even define what a transitional fossil would look like, how do you know they don't exist?
The only actual evidence is of clades, which is exactly what creationists expect, an adaptive variety formed from an original organism.
Since all mammals form a clade, are you saying that all mammals, including humans, share a common ancestor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 7:54 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 1011 of 1163 (795558)
12-14-2016 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 2:37 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
If I see that wording as literal, surely as a Christian you would not claim I am perverted in that belief.
That seems to create a rather large problem for you. An insistence on a literal interpretation only leads to the conclusion that the Bible is false since all of the evidence demonstrates that a literal interpretation is not true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 2:37 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1018 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 2:52 PM Taq has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1012 of 1163 (795560)
12-14-2016 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 991 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 7:21 AM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
Evolution has theory, no evidence
I do not see why the discovery of a new species of semi-aquatic mammal proves it is ancestor to the whale. Evolutionists just love semi-aquatic organisms and are too desperate for intermediates to see them as what they are. Mudfish and otters are semi-aquatic, the existence of semi-aquatic organisms in the fossils record just proves the VARIETY of life, not the EVOLVING of life.
Actually the evidence for evolution comes from the world around you and the diversity of life we see.
Remember that the process of evolution differs from the theory of evolution:
The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.
Mutations of hereditary traits have been observed to occur, and thus this aspect of evolution is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
Natural selection and neutral drift have been observed to occur, along with the observed alteration in the distribution of hereditary traits within breeding populations, and thus this aspect of evolution is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
The process of evolution (also called "micro-evolution" in biology) is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
Now, can you tell me what the theory of evolution (TOE) is that makes your impression of the fossil record a problem?
Theories are based on facts, not wishful thinking or guesses. As far as I know there is no known instance of creation happening -- do you have one?
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 7:21 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1013 of 1163 (795561)
12-14-2016 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1007 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 1:49 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
Which particular transition do you prefer as evidence. The so-called monkey-ape transition? The whale transition? Name your favorite and let's see what evidence you have.
You are the one claiming that they are not transitional. What criteria are you using to reach that conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 1:49 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1014 of 1163 (795562)
12-14-2016 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1005 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 1:34 PM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
mindspawn writes:
I see multiple species in that picture of yours. Can you explain your interpretation of the picture and why you interpret it like you do?
You should see multiple species when shown multiple transitional species. That's the whole point.
Where is your explanation for your interpretation that they are not transitional? What criteria are you using?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 1:34 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1015 of 1163 (795563)
12-14-2016 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by PaulK
12-14-2016 2:15 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
Really at this stage the point is the number of transitions supported by the fossil record. To choose one is to miss the point, although the evolution of the mammalian jaw structure is an especially good one.
But I have to ask what is the point ? You can't prove that the fossils don't exist. If you have an reasonable explanation for them you haven't offered one. And Kurt Wise is far more familiar with the evidence than you are ever likely to be. If a dedicated Young Earth Creationist, with a very good knowledge and understanding of the evidence says that transitional fossils are good evidence for evolution I think it has to be taken seriously.
To choose one transitional sequence is the exact point. I agree with short term transitions from an original kind, to prove such a transition is confirming creationism too and gives evolution no advantage. If you have any longer term transitionary sequence kindly show it. If mammalian jaws, kindly post a link or evidence for such a transition. I am genuinely interested in any evidence for this theory of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2016 2:15 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1017 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:50 PM mindspawn has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1016 of 1163 (795564)
12-14-2016 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 1:41 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
Please can you explain exactly how many of those 4 980 000 results are actually proving evolution. We know what the evidence is. Fossils exist. We can interpret that evidence. The interpretation does not suggest evolution.
How does the interpretation not suggest evolution?
Evolution is a superficial interpretation when the evidence of most organisms appearing fully formed suggests rather that they radiated out from niche locations when conditions were suitable.
Again, how do you determine if a fossil is fully formed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 1:41 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:33 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1017 of 1163 (795565)
12-14-2016 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1015 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 2:47 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
To choose one transitional sequence is the exact point. I agree with short term transitions from an original kind, to prove such a transition is confirming creationism too and gives evolution no advantage. If you have any longer term transitionary sequence kindly show it. If mammalian jaws, kindly post a link or evidence for such a transition. I am genuinely interested in any evidence for this theory of evolution.
How does one "prove a transition" in your eyes? What evidence does it take?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1015 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 2:47 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1022 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:23 PM Taq has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1018 of 1163 (795567)
12-14-2016 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Taq
12-14-2016 2:44 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
That seems to create a rather large problem for you. An insistence on a literal interpretation only leads to the conclusion that the Bible is false since all of the evidence demonstrates that a literal interpretation is not true.
You guys keep saying that the evidence supports evolution. Yet I still await any evidence for evolution and am still wondering how you can accept such a theory when most major phyla appeared fully formed without any intermediates from the original LUCA. Unfortunately the evidence does not favor you, you do however have the support of your educators.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:44 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1019 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:53 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 1030 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 3:39 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1066 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 8:47 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1019 of 1163 (795570)
12-14-2016 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1018 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 2:52 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
You guys keep saying that the evidence supports evolution. Yet I still await any evidence for evolution and am still wondering how you can accept such a theory when most major phyla appeared fully formed without any intermediates from the original LUCA. Unfortunately the evidence does not favor you, you do however have the support of your educators.
You have already been given the evidence multiple times. You refuse to address it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 2:52 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1020 of 1163 (795572)
12-14-2016 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 1:41 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
Please can you explain exactly how many of those 4 980 000 results are actually proving evolution.
Every one of them. Why not actually read one?

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"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 1:41 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
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