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Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Do you have any desire to communicate with Him? What does that even mean? How can you have a two way communication with God? How can you even determine that you are communicating with God?
Phat writes: It means to actually talk with Him. It means allowing Him to prompt you to change yourself for the better...to conform to His character. It means to quit being so stubborn and independent and trust someone in authority for once. Why should anyone trust someone in authority? I can understand how you could talk to Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God but how do you talk WITH any of them?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How can you have a two way communication with God? You talk and then you listen. In fact, it is wise to do more listening than talking. Notice Moses in Num 9:8-13 writes: Does it not seem as if the Lord is talking with Moses?
8 Moses answered them, "Wait until I find out what the LORD commands concerning you."9 Then the LORD said to Moses, 10 "Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the LORD's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the LORD's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin. How can you even determine that you are communicating with God? I suppose to skeptical questioners such as you, there would be no evidence...but the fact that you get answers would be a clue...unless you attributed the answers to your own internal sub conscious.It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones...so another clue would be if the answer sounded right. By this I dont mean that the answer is simply what you want...I mean if the answer hints at wisdom...when you intuitively know it sounds right even if you may not agree with it. Why should anyone trust someone in authority? Don't be afraid to question any and all authority. I can understand how you could talk to Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God but how do you talk WITH any of them? You have read the Bible. It often speaks of people talking with God and not just to Him. You belief at this point is your decision and your responsibility. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones.. Moses did not claim to hear an inner voice of God. The Bible tell us that God met with Moses in various physical ways throughout Moses life. Are you claiming to have experiences similar to those described in the Bible regarding Moses? To Paul and Damascus? Just how many inner voice discussion with God are described in the Bible? Isn't that primarily a phenomena claimed by the post New Testament Church? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar writes: You talk and then you listen. In fact, it is wise to do more listening than talking. Notice Moses in How can you have a two way communication with God?Num 9:8-13 writes: Does it not seem as if the Lord is talking with Moses?
8 Moses answered them, "Wait until I find out what the LORD commands concerning you."9 Then the LORD said to Moses, 10 "Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the LORD's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the LORD's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin. Did Luke hold conversations with Darth Vader?
Phat writes: jar writes: I suppose to skeptical questioners such as you, there would be no evidence...but the fact that you get answers would be a clue...unless you attributed the answers to your own internal sub conscious. How can you even determine that you are communicating with God?It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones...so another clue would be if the answer sounded right. By this I dont mean that the answer is simply what you want...I mean if the answer hints at wisdom...when you intuitively know it sounds right even if you may not agree with it. So it is the content that is important and not the source. How do you test the content other than by using reason, logic and reality instead of simply choosing what you want to be correct?
Phat writes: jar writes: You have read the Bible. It often speaks of people talking with God and not just to Him. I can understand how you could talk to Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God but how do you talk WITH any of them? "Luke; I am your father!" In stories such things are possible. But that is not what I asked. How do you talk with Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God? Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken quote
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Why do you lump these 3 characters together? I know that both Santa and the Tooth Fairy are characters invented by humanity. When I was a child i may have written a letter to Santa. Even on TV the local weatherman would report that Santas sleigh was enroute. As for the tooth fairy, I simply put my tooth under the pillow and found 50 cents in the morning, though even then I suspected my parents were involved. As for the God mentioned in Numbers 8 I do not see a similar character in the same way. How do you talk with Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God?
To acknowledge that the early Bible was simply human invented stories does not sit well with me. At the very least, these people believed that they were talking with God...just as many of us do today when we pray. The writers believed what they wrote, in my opinion. You cannot say the same for the other two characters...except perhaps that a small child believes that they really hear Santa on the roof. The comparison is not the same. The legends were foreknown to be myth by adults.
jar writes: . And after testing with logic, reason, and reality I do not arrive at the same conclusions you have reached. I do not see the character of God how you teach Him. ---You are quite certain your beliefs are wrong, chiefly because in my opinion you have a higher regard for logic, reason, and reality than you do to your belief. I refuse to assign a probability to my beliefs since such a calculation is impossible...unless you believe the critics and skeptics who denounce scripture. Many are learned. Most are unaffected by traditional bias or mythos. Honestly, I don't trust the wisdom(nor the motive) of these people. They have no solid case. They are in fact unbelievers. In stories such things are possible. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : editedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
NoNukes writes: I did some quick research and found the following:
Just how many inner voice discussion with God are described in the Bible? Isn't that primarily a phenomena claimed by the post New Testament Church?Dallas Willard writes:
Here are some Biblical examples of what it looks like to hear God speak: The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. (Exodus 33:11) The LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam (Numb 22:28) Eli told [the little boy] Samuel, ‘Go and lie down, and if [the Lord] calls you [again], say, Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.’ (1 Samuel 3:9) David inquired of the LORD, and he answered, ‘Do not go straight up [as you did last time] As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, move quickly, because that will mean the LORD has gone out in front of you’ (2 Samuel 5:23-24) After the fire came a gentle whisper Then a voice said to [Elijah] (1 Kings 19:12-13) The LORD speaks and I skip like a calf! (Psalm 29:3, 6, par).Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
"Use the Force, Luke" Obi Wan Kenobi
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I did some quick research and found the following: The question was about "inner voice" communications from God. Do you think a voice coming out of a donkey's mouth is relevant? Were any of your examples relevant. It does not appear so to me. Are you making my point or yours? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
all that we have are reports. Some take scripture as authoritative and others do not. What is written is all we have.
On a personal note, I have not clearly heard an inner voice except once. Even then I have no way of verifying it. we do have an inner conscience however...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: we do have an inner conscience however... Yes, yes, yes and it's a biological trait shared by many large brained animals. It's notably lacking in individuals we call pychopaths and sociopaths.
It's got sod all to do with god unless you believe that all other instincts, emotions and feelings like hate, violence, competiveness, xenophobia, acquisitiveness etc, etc, come from him too. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It would be interesting to find out how many different writers George Lucas used. Or if he wrote the whole story. And whether he knew (he did) that it was intended to be a story before he even wrote it. The analogy falls flat.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: It would be interesting to find out how many different writers George Lucas used. Or if he wrote the whole story. And whether he knew (he did) that it was intended to be a story before he even wrote it. The analogy falls flat. How many different people did god use to write the bible? The bible is stuffed full of stories - creation myths, talking snakes, global floods, parting seas, pillars of salt, resurrections - good grief man, most of them even predate the bible and are present in many other traditions and cultures. We made up stories to explain the things we didn't understand. These are childish myths endlessly repeated even now in the modern day story telling of the movies. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So you don't believe that God created everything.
I believe that God never designed the flaws. Phat writes:
It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands.
...our desire to be free from authority and be our own god(s).
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
His salvation was in his own hands Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: ringo writes: Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there. His salvation was in his own hands There you go quote mining, misrepresenting what others say and taking pieces parts out of context. What ringo actually said was "It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands. " So Phat, who built the Ark?
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