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Author Topic:   Radiometric Dating Corroboration
mark24
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 16 of 41 (7872)
03-26-2002 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
03-26-2002 10:15 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
I seem to remember reading something about Olsen's comments re: the Deccan flats (I knew that my spelling was wrong ). IMO, the dating of the lava flows is too close to the KT event, as is the iridium layer, to be coincidence.


I agree, If my memory serves me, iridium can be found in relatively high quantities in lava. The real question is is it found in volcanic ash/dust, which it would have to be, if it was going to contribute to the global iridium layer. Even if it weren't, I agree that the deccan traps probably represents too much of a coincidence to not have had an affect on the K-T extinction.

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 17 of 41 (7873)
03-26-2002 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by mark24
03-26-2002 11:26 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
I agree, If my memory serves me, iridium can be found in relatively high quantities in lava.

I think that it (elevated iridium) is found in lava but not at the same quantities as found in the layer, making the iridium layer likely of extraterrestrial origen. At least that is what I remember from a book by the Alvereses (sp?) and from a few other sources.

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz


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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 18 of 41 (7878)
03-26-2002 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
03-26-2002 11:38 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
I think that it (elevated iridium) is found in lava but not at the same quantities as found in the layer, making the iridium layer likely of extraterrestrial origen. At least that is what I remember from a book by the Alvereses (sp?) and from a few other sources.

JM: You are correct, extraterrestrial sources of iridium are more enriched than volcanic. The real clincher was the distribution of shocked quartz in that same layer. The only way to generate shocked quartz is via impact.

Cheers

Joe Meert


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edge
Member (Idle past 981 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 19 of 41 (7881)
03-26-2002 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Joe Meert
03-26-2002 1:12 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Joe Meert:
JM: .... The only way to generate shocked quartz is via impact.

Cheers

Joe Meert


Uh oh! I think I detect another wmscott theory on the horizon.


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wehappyfew
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 41 (7885)
03-26-2002 4:51 PM


At the risk of terminal thread drift, here's a nifty graph I came across in researching TC's mantle model:

The red squares represent major episodes of flood basalt eruptions. The arrows represent extinction events. The sceptical question to ask at this point is whether there are many more extinction events, and the author just picked out the ones that happened to line up with flood basalts? Or are there many flood basalt eruptions and he picked out the ones that line up with extinction events?

If this really is a concise record of extinctions and flood basalts, then the link between them seems unassailable.

from

http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/self.asp

also see the table here:

http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/template.cfm?name=fbasalts


Replies to this message:
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 21 of 41 (7886)
03-26-2002 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by wehappyfew
03-26-2002 4:51 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by wehappyfew:
If this really is a concise record of extinctions and flood basalts, then the link between them seems unassailable.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have seen a similar table/graph concerning the timing of likely comet or asteroid strikes and mass extinctions. I will try to find the book tonight or later this week.

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz


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mark24
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 22 of 41 (7887)
03-26-2002 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by wehappyfew
03-26-2002 4:51 PM


What ever way you cook it, it looks like volcanism is bad for our health! I never realised the correlation was so close between volcanism & extinction. I wonder how TC explains this "fluke".

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 41 (7912)
03-27-2002 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mark24
03-26-2002 5:07 PM


"What ever way you cook it, it looks like volcanism is bad for our health! I never realised the correlation was so close between volcanism & extinction. I wonder how TC explains this "fluke"."
-I wouldn't call it a fluke in the least, its very appealing to the model that I propose. Simply because, the 'problem' that people see in it is that its going to kill everything (or atleast lead to extinctions with different unlucky kinds). Seems, its an expectant.

------------------


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 Message 22 by mark24, posted 03-26-2002 5:07 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by mark24, posted 03-27-2002 2:05 PM TrueCreation has replied
 Message 27 by nator, posted 03-27-2002 9:33 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 24 of 41 (7914)
03-27-2002 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by TrueCreation
03-27-2002 1:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"What ever way you cook it, it looks like volcanism is bad for our health! I never realised the correlation was so close between volcanism & extinction. I wonder how TC explains this "fluke"."
-I wouldn't call it a fluke in the least, its very appealing to the model that I propose. Simply because, the 'problem' that people see in it is that its going to kill everything (or atleast lead to extinctions with different unlucky kinds). Seems, its an expectant.


Why is it expected? Because it kills? The volcanism that would be expected by your model would leave nothing but very, very, lucky archaea.

The volcanism that marries up with extinctions IS UNexpected by your model (message 20). How do you explain the fossil record relating to those extinctions re. volcanism? A lucky fluke? Why were ALL trilobites killed at the P-T boundary (along with 84% of ALL genera) at that time without managing to kill a single, I repeat, a SINGLE mammal, not to mention dinosaurs, but ammonites ALL died at the K-T boundary without a SINGLE primate being killed? The list goes on.

Mark

ps message 8 pls

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by TrueCreation, posted 03-27-2002 1:53 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by TrueCreation, posted 03-27-2002 2:14 PM mark24 has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 41 (7915)
03-27-2002 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mark24
03-27-2002 2:05 PM


"Why is it expected? Because it kills? The volcanism that would be expected by your model would leave nothing but very, very, lucky archaea."
--Really? So you have done the calculations? Because I have not yet, I still must find ratio's of outer-core, asthenosphere, lithosphere, and crust Lead, Uranium, and Thorium radioisotopes to even find the initial variables.

"The volcanism that marries up with extinctions IS UNexpected by your model (message 20). How do you explain the fossil record relating to those extinctions re. volcanism? A lucky fluke? Why were ALL trilobites killed at the P-T boundary (along with 84% of ALL genera) at that time without managing to kill a single, I repeat, a SINGLE mammal, not to mention dinosaurs, but ammonites ALL died at the K-T boundary without a SINGLE primate being killed?"
--I think we discussed Trilobites in 'Falsifying Creation', http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=1&t=75&p=6 .

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mark24, posted 03-27-2002 2:05 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by mark24, posted 03-27-2002 2:39 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 26 of 41 (7917)
03-27-2002 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by TrueCreation
03-27-2002 2:14 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:

"The volcanism that marries up with extinctions IS UNexpected by your model (message 20). How do you explain the fossil record relating to those extinctions re. volcanism? A lucky fluke? Why were ALL trilobites killed at the P-T boundary (along with 84% of ALL genera) at that time without managing to kill a single, I repeat, a SINGLE mammal, not to mention dinosaurs, but ammonites ALL died at the K-T boundary without a SINGLE primate being killed?"
--I think we discussed Trilobites in 'Falsifying Creation', http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=1&t=75&p=6 .


Perhaps you could repeat the pertinent arguments here. Various episodes of volcanism have been identified that coincide with mass extinctions. I couldn't find the bit that discusses this in the link you gave.

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by TrueCreation, posted 03-27-2002 2:14 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by TrueCreation, posted 03-29-2002 12:59 AM mark24 has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 41 (7926)
03-27-2002 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by TrueCreation
03-27-2002 1:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"What ever way you cook it, it looks like volcanism is bad for our health! I never realised the correlation was so close between volcanism & extinction. I wonder how TC explains this "fluke"."
-I wouldn't call it a fluke in the least, its very appealing to the model that I propose. Simply because, the 'problem' that people see in it is that its going to kill everything (or atleast lead to extinctions with different unlucky kinds). Seems, its an expectant.

What is a "kind", TC? Did this question of mine get answered yet?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by TrueCreation, posted 03-27-2002 1:53 PM TrueCreation has replied

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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 28 of 41 (7951)
03-28-2002 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
03-26-2002 5:05 PM


Yeahh I found it (at long last). The book is Extinction:Bad Genes or Bad Luck by David Raup. There is a discussion in chapter 10 concerning relationships between most mass extinctions and meterorite impacts. Some of the data is very similar to the data concerning volcanism w.r.t correlations.

The book is decent although not the best that I have read on the subject. I kept thinking that it was in Alveres's Book T.rex and the Crater of Doom.

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

[This message has been edited by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, 03-31-2002]


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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 29 of 41 (7952)
03-28-2002 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
03-27-2002 9:33 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
What is a "kind", TC? Did this question of mine get answered yet?


Kind is the non-biological concept that creationists try to substitute for species (of course, you probably already knew this and were trying to pin TC down ). It even falls outside of the somewhat looser aplications of the BSC.

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz


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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 41 (7960)
03-29-2002 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
03-27-2002 9:33 PM


"What is a "kind", TC? Did this question of mine get answered yet?"
--Before I answer Mark's post, considering 'kinds', lets see. When you ask 'what is a kind' are you asking for a definition (in the context of the question I believe), or are you asking for what animals I can point out that are 'kinds' or how can you recognize whether something is a 'kind', a bit simmilar but different. Baraminology I believe I have heard of is attempting to do the pin-pointing with genetic simmilarity within the cooperation of speciation, mutation and differernt diversifications within hereditary characteristics on different biological levels. Though the definition of a 'kind' in another context is the group of animals that were created as is on the creation dates.
--As is analogous toward an inability to give a direct definition toward 'species', the 'kind' as well is difficult to make such a direct pin-point, universal coincidence. Ie, the definition is applicable to all organisms.

(Careful Tazimus, arrogance can be bliss, though It is best to keep quiet untill you have room to make such a confident assertion)

------------------

[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 03-29-2002]


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