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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 641 of 675 (763069)
07-20-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by jar
07-13-2015 12:24 PM


Intended Audience ---Who Determines?
jar writes:

Not one word of any Bible was written for or to people living today.

Not sure if I agree. Michaelangelo may well have never painted a painting that was "meant" to be seen by people alive today...and yet we do view his great paintings and they inspire us arguably as much as they did the intended audience.

Who determines what is for us and/or what is addressed to us?

If the author and/or artist is long since gone, the determination is made by us ourselves.

If the author happened to be alive (eternally, even) we still determine what is written for us and what is written to us.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by jar, posted 07-13-2015 12:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by jar, posted 07-20-2015 11:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 643 by ringo, posted 07-20-2015 11:50 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 644 of 675 (763108)
07-21-2015 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 643 by ringo
07-20-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Intended Audience ---Who Determines?
If the shoe fits....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by ringo, posted 07-20-2015 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 11:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 645 of 675 (763121)
07-21-2015 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
07-09-2007 1:14 PM


Re: What God expects
jar writes:

So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?

If God knows me, God allows me. I freely decide what i will think. God is hopefully present in that moment of decision. I believe that God is present in the future as well as the present. God is present before I arrive at that moment.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 646 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 11:31 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 647 of 675 (763123)
07-21-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 646 by jar
07-21-2015 11:31 AM


Re: What God expects
jar writes:

So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?

I will answer your question after asking you a question. Does God know what we are thinking at the present moment?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 11:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 11:48 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 650 of 675 (763136)
07-21-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by jar
07-21-2015 11:48 AM


Re: What God expects
jar writes:

I have absolutely no way to know the answer and cannot see how it could in anyway be relevant.

perhaps God feels the same way and thus sees no relevance in knowing what we will decide.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 11:48 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 12:13 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 652 of 675 (763141)
07-21-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 651 by jar
07-21-2015 12:13 PM


Does He or Doesn't He?
jar writes:

So yet again you refuse to answer the question even after claiming you would.
So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?

Honestly I dont know.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 12:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:01 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 654 of 675 (763163)
07-21-2015 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by jar
07-21-2015 1:01 PM


Re: Does He or Doesn't He?
You want me to say that I don't know if I have such a communion nor can I understand what it even means. Don't you! I will say that it (the communion) is a blessed hope. I base it on the words of your favorite Gospel... John. You have mentioned before how John was the step child of the Gospels and of how the message was changed. To me, it may well have more sizzle, but it is nevertheless still steak.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by jar, posted 07-21-2015 1:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by jar, posted 12-01-2016 7:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 655 of 675 (794930)
12-01-2016 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Faith
11-24-2014 4:29 PM


Re: Read it and believe it
I agree with Faith in this argument. If Loving your neighbor as yourself" was the summation of the message...feeding, clothing, encouraging others...then there would have been no need for the first part.

The message is not just to go simply do. I have no problem with good works. I have no problem with the argument that doing good works proves that one believes the message...EXCEPT...that loving God...loving and knowing and talking with and listening to the Risen Christ is as essential.

Maybe a lot of goats left behind are Christians, I dunno.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 11-24-2014 4:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 657 of 675 (794949)
12-02-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 636 by jar
07-17-2015 3:50 PM


Maps,Territories,and personal decisions
Do you mean you hope you are actually having some communion?
My relationship with God--through Jesus Christ--is not simply some fervent wish.
I will reevaluate your question again, since much has changed in my life and my perspective in the past year. I have no doubt in my mind that God is alive through jesus Christ.

I have seen many examples of good and bad human behavior. Granted I cannot prove that theses observations--both in myself and others--were caused by God and there is of course no way to prove it. For me, evidence in the strict sense is not important. My belief is confirmed through my daily experience and I will admit to a degree of confirmation bias.
So to answer your question, yes I do have hope.

jar,addressing Faith writes:

How do you know it is from "Him" particularly when the Bible itself is so filled with errors, falsehoods, contradictions and irrelevancies?
After all the devil can quote scripture.

Lets say that the Bible is as you say. If so, why would I expect a world that is any different? The world itself and the modern media and the behavior of people on the street and in general is filled with errors,falsehoods,contradictions, and irrelevancies. Personally, I do not see the Bible as you see it. I value what is written more than I do what is said critically regarding the books. I don't believe that God and Christianity and belief itself are mere creations of the collective human mind.

jar,addressing faith writes:

What if I belong to a chapter of Club Christian that does not require I throw away my brain before entering?

You are free to reason as you like. I would advise you not to hold logic, reason, and reality in a higher regard than GOD. (unless logic, reason, reality and socratic wisdom are your conception of GOD.)

My issue is not with my mind. My issue is with my heart.

jar writes:

...no Bible is one book, one story, one tale but rather an anthology of anthologies written by people of different cultures, eras and mythos for people living in different eras, cultures and mythos. Not one word of any Bible was written for or to people living today. Of course that does not mean that the stories cannot be relevant today.

Where you and I differ is the attribution of the source. You believe that humans invented the stories. I don't.
So the Bible, whichever canon is being considered is a collection of writings done by humans of several evolving belief systems that were later selected by other humans, edited by other humans and compiled by other humans.
And the Bible is also interpreted by humans. Some actually believe in a God who makes mistakes. The reason this makes sense to you is because you also believe that the God(s) in the bible are entirely human creations. I do not share this belief.

So the picture we should get from the various Bibles and Bible stories is one of evolution, of changing societies, beliefs, behavior and mythos.
The picture you get is not the picture we should get.
So the Old Testament is a look at the evolving creation called Judaism and reflects many of the challenges, conflicts and differences of something as many faceted as Judaism.
I would argue that the Jewish culture was trying to understand who God was. The question that might be asked is whether the evidence shows that the culture created God or whether God actually existed and was attempting to teach a culture how to behave...even as he foreknew that they would be involved in many wars. People blame god for killing innocents. And yet the evidence shows that it was the people who carried it out.
The New Testament has the similarities of being works written by and edited by and redacted by and canonized by other unknown people over several hundred years.
The question I would ask is if we can determine that the writers were writing of their own imagination and motive or whether they were reporting something else.

The Bible (remember there is no such thing as "The Bible™") is simply a human creation.
Christianity is a human creation.
You present a good case, but I wont buy what you are selling. I believe that the Bible was inspired by God and that while we all are human, the Creator of the universe desires communion with us.
They make claims like "Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT). All this is evidence that the whole thing was ultimately authored by God Himself." which only make the God character look truly stupid.
If anyone looks stupid, it is not God. God authors your intelligence. He defined you before you were old enough to think to define Him.
Christianity has almost nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus was never a Christian anyway.

But I'm a Christian.

Most likely that is a result of family and environment but ultimately it's still a matter of personal decision.

Explain to me how you would want to decide to be a Christian if Jesus was not a Christian? Sounds like you are marketing a new religion here.

Edited by Phat, : fixed

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by jar, posted 07-17-2015 3:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by jar, posted 12-02-2016 1:03 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 659 of 675 (794955)
12-02-2016 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by jar
12-02-2016 1:03 PM


Re: Maps,Territories,and personal decisions
OK thats an honest answer.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by jar, posted 12-02-2016 1:03 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 661 of 675 (795053)
12-05-2016 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
07-16-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Back to basics.
jar writes:

But that simply shows you totally misunderstand the argument, so let me try once again.

Is God the Creator?

Yes. The God i worship is the Creator of all seen and unseen. The God I worship created Lucifer also, who chose to become Satan. I realize I'm describing God as I believe Him to be.
jar writes:

Does God create everything that is, seen and unseen?

Yes.
As a side-note, you and I disagree on the Gods we market. Perhaps we can find common ground. Lets pick up our foreknowledge/freewill argument again. You ask the questions.

Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling+added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 10:45 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 662 of 675 (795378)
12-12-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 658 by jar
12-02-2016 1:03 PM


Re: Maps,Territories,and personal decisions
Jesus was born a Jew, raised as a Jew, preached to Jews, lived as a Jew, tried to reform Judaism and died as a Jew.
If Jesus preached to Jews, why do you take matthew 25 as being for everyone? The fact is that Jesus preaches to everyone.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by jar, posted 12-02-2016 1:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by jar, posted 12-12-2016 11:52 AM Phat has responded
 Message 670 by ringo, posted 12-30-2016 11:02 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 664 of 675 (795418)
12-13-2016 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 663 by jar
12-12-2016 11:52 AM


Re: Maps,Territories,and personal decisions
jar writes:

Jesus pissed the Jews off by pointing out that they are NOT the Chosen people. If Jesus were here today I imagine he would piss off most Christians by pointing out that they too are not the Chosen people.

Actually I agree with this assessment.

Sometimes i think I need to pray (and read the Bible) more, and argue online less.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by jar, posted 12-12-2016 11:52 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2016 4:35 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 666 of 675 (796456)
12-30-2016 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 665 by Tangle
12-13-2016 4:35 AM


Gone Fishin For Eternal Security
Phat writes:

Sometimes i think I need to pray (and read the Bible) more, and argue online less.

Tangle writes:

And I think that if you did much less of all three and took up golf or fishing or anything that got you outside and beyond your internal obsessions you'd be a helluva lot happier.

Perhaps.

Tell me though---do you have no problem with simply dying and ceasing to exist?

If the answer is no do you feel that you will continue to live vicariously through your offspring? Is that not a different way of defining eternal life---living through the next generation?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2016 4:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2016 9:50 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13661
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 668 of 675 (796460)
12-30-2016 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 667 by Tangle
12-30-2016 9:50 AM


Re: Gone Fishin For Eternal Security
Once you accept that we're just another form of life that is totally disposable, life gets easy. You're not important in the scheme of things - you are only important to the people who's lives you touch.
in which case i would ask them to go fishing with me. Being alone is no fun.

Tell me this, though. If we are only important to those whose lives we touch, is that itself not spirituality?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2016 9:50 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2016 10:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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