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Author | Topic: The 2016 United States Presidential Election | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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What does this mean? Since no one got more than 269.0, it would have been thrown to the House of Representatives, who probably would have picked Trump anyway. They might well have picked Pence. I am no longer sure if that would have been even worse. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And here the New York Times describes Trump's desire to expand Israeli West Bank settlements, escalating tensions between Israelis and Palestinians: Trump Pressures Obama Over U.N. Resolution on Israeli Settlements Obama did not use the US veto to derail the UN resolution. I think most folks saw that coming. US abstains as UN demands end to Israeli settlements | CNN Politics
quote: ABE:
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The link in your post took me to some site reporting IOS phone usage. A quick use of peek suggests that it was not my fault... A little help?
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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ack of liars beyond belief, so bad you guys didn't even know you were going to lose you'd lied to yourselves so much about what Americans want. Fascinating. I wonder if you will recognize any of these statements made after the last election prior to this one. Hint: The statements were all made by a well known, prominent, Republican politician.
quote: Let's note that Obama won both the electoral college and the popular vote. Seriously, project much? I have not detected a single person in this newsgroup who fails to acknowledge that Trump won the election. Trump won fair and square.
Only when the civilized side has to give in, and that is not your side. As the above quotes suggest, you cannot claim the high road about accepting election results. Not with the president elects own track record. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
No. He won because the system is rigged. Because of suppression of minority and liberal votes in republican states. Because of hacked voting machines. Because of election fraud. This has been going on since 2002. Unless you can back this stuff up with evidence, you are simply contributing to the problem of misunderstanding between the sides. The other side claims that millions of illegal immigrants voted in California with a similar lack of evidence. Beyond that, most folks who believe neither claim has any basis in reality see plenty of reasons to be disgusted at the election results and disappointed with the educated folks who voted for Trump. The primary system appeared to be rigged against Trump during his campaign. Many folks thought that the electoral system and the democratic leaning states were an insurmountable obstacle for Trump. It is almost laughable how quickly that idea disappeared. Most folks now say that the electoral college is a Republican advantage.
North Carolina no longer ranks as a democracy Yeah, it does suck here. No question about that. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Unless Trump didn't say, "The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability," or he didn't pressure Obama over a U.N. resolution on Israeli West Bank settlements, the news reported in Message 758 was perfectly accurate Exactly. And here is indeed a distinction between your argument and the one marc9000 makes. Folks are worried about Trump based on things Trump has unquestionably said or done and not based on some conspiracy theory they've manufactured. I understand that some folks "choose to access information that you don't" and also choose to believe anything they read or see there. Maybe the lack of coverage of some things on main stream sources (which I agree with marc9000 do omit things) is a good reason to look elsewhere. But you still have to vet sources and I see no evidence whatsoever that either Faith or marc9000 are capable of filtering what they hear for the truth. So what comes across is a debate about what Trump has undeniably said and done, versus yeah but Obama is a Kenyan, or Hillary is running a sex slave shop in the back of a pizzeria.
marc9000 writes: Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. Lol! I might well have made this accusation if marc9000 had not said it himself. Best example ever. Surely there are some Trump supporters who don't think quite this way. Where are they? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NN writes: Unless you can back this stuff up with evidence, ... RAZD writes: See Election Rigging. This is the same none evidence you posted the last time I asked. Yeah, the machines are hackable. The question is whether they were hacked to deliver results for Trump in the general election or Hillary in the primaries. There is zero evidence of either.
Sorry, not an equivalent claim. That is voter fraud and not election fraud. The level of voter fraud has been investigated and documented and it has been shown to be a red-herring argument by the GOP to hide their election frauds. To be clear, I'm specifically asking you about hacked voting results.
NN writes: Most folks now say that the electoral college is a Republican advantage. RAZD writes: Because electors are voted on in the same districts as are gerrymandered for the House of Representatives? Uh, no. Gerrymandering has no effect on the number of electors that a state has, and with the exception of the two states that divide up electors proportionately, gerrymandering has a similar lack of effect on how electors are assigned. With the exception of Maine and Nebraska, electors are picked statewide. Maine and Nebraska also don't have enough electors to allow gerrymandering to have any effect on the presidential election. The advantage is because folks gerrymander themselves through their election to live and work in urban vs rural settings. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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NN writes: folks gerrymander themselves through their election to live and work in urban vs rural settings. Dwise writes: Sorry, but ... what!?!?!?!? The statement was supposed to be humorous. My fault for not including some kind of sarcasm indicator.
So shouldn't the rural folk be grouped together and the urban folk grouped together? Instead of being sliced and diced and rearranged in a manner favorable to the political party in power? Sigh. With respect to the election for president, the current arrangement was not created by the political party in power. It was created at the formation of the union to give the Southern states, with their lower (slaves excluded) population more of a say in electing the president. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Now, compare that with your statement: " ... folks gerrymander themselves through their election to live and work in urban vs rural settings." OK, you were trying to a different point, but I propose that gerrymandering renders your point moot. Wrong. My comments about Gerrymandering applied only to the presidential election. There are no "presidential" districts in presidential elections. Voting is state wide, and neither party gets to tinker with state boundaries in a way that affects the presidential election. The issue here is the proportioning and use of the electoral college. Period. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So is there any actual evidence being presented of Russia doing the hacking or are we just to accept it on faith that the CIA wouldn't lie? That's an interesting question. All you personally are ever likely to get are summaries of conclusions and descriptions of the evidence. So at some point you are going to have to trust somebody or just call everyone liars. You have individual Congressional representatives who get more access than you do and who have seen more directly the the evidence, have the ability to evaluate the credibility of the witnesses, and who, nearly to a man/woman, have been convinced. Now that may or may not be enough for you, but with regards to classified information, you are not likely to get anything better. I admit to harboring some doubts that are not going to be assuaged, but my doubts don't include the idea that the intelligence folks are lying. Not that such a thing could not change. Individuals of course are free to make up their minds any way they chose. In some cases that means simply concluding whatever fits in with the rest of your mindset. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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but the CIA report was not claiming that Russia hacked the election itself, as in, hacked the voting machines No Faith. It has been pretty clear in the press that the hacking involves breaking into DNC computers and not hacking voting machines. The statements by Trumps spokeperson that 1) The CIA says that such hacking did not influence the election, and 2) that no voting machines have been hacked are all smoke screens. Claims about tampering with voting machines have not been applied to Russians, and the relevance of those claims has not been news since the recounts those claims prompted were stopped. But of course that is not suspicions, right?
Seems like good evidence to me too. Further, Riggamortis did not cite a single piece of evidence. Instead he explained why he thought folks might get away with lying. It's okay that he and you consider such things in informing your opinion. But there is zero evidence indicating that the Russians did not interfere in the political process, and at least some evidence suggesting that they did.
I'm still waiting to see if Assange has anything to say about it since he SEEMED to promise to reveal the actual source. citation please. I don't see any way Assange could actually know such a thing. Maybe the evidence will come out in five or six months along with that "proof" that millions of illegal immigrants voted for Hillary you claimed to be waiting for. For some reason unevidenced statements about things you want to believe are fine, but rigorous evidence for things against your world view are required. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I was responding only to Riggamortis' agreement that it would be sttupid for a hacking operation to leave such blatant clues to its identify, that's all. That's right. Except that you referred to his agreement as evidence. I think pointing out that it was no such thing was appropriate. Do you have a rebuttal?
Assange said it in the Hannity interview, mentioned earlier. People say a lot of things. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
No I did not. All I said was that we agree that what McAfee said about how hackers wouldn't give away their identity like that is good evidence that the report is phony. Again, what McAfee said is not evidence. What he gave and what Riggy stated are opinions about the evidence. Evidence consists of facts and not opinions about facts. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I note that you are changing what you said, which perhaps wasn't what you meant but still it was what you said; but now you are hairsplitting and to what purpose? No. I did not make a change. Nothing in Riggy's post constitutes evidence despite your claiming that it was "good evidence". All I have done additionally is spell out what was in that post. And again, what you call an inference is strictly an opinion. And in understanding whether the opinion is valuable, we should take into account the fact that McAfee is pretty flaky.
At the very least it's extremely strange that a hacker would be so naive. If you have another explanation, please float it. Again, you are relying on McAfee's opinion of the ability of hackers to conceal their tracks. His opinion may or may not be correct. Generally speaking, arguments that a crime is too stupid for a criminal to commit are not what I consider persuasive. ABE:
If you just want to suggest a more accurate word, go ahead, what does it serve to make a big deal out of something so obvious? Why are you trying to oversell the basis for your opinion. 1) The statement is not evidence.2) The conclusion is at most plausible. It may or may not be correct. You can form your own opinion any way you want to. But if you are making an attempt to be persuasive, don't be surprised if your excesses are pointed out. Reasonable people can reach different conclusions about what to believe. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Thanks Percy.
Too statements in the report:
quote: In short, analyses that complain that the report does not contain the evidence are likely to be off base because that is not the purpose of the report. What some critiques are doing is using secondary indicators in lieu of having any kind of evidence or facts to attack/address the conclusions. That's fine, but you have to acknowledge the short comings of such things. Is AGW really bogus because Al Gore believes in it? Intelligence folks lie, so the report is full of lies is another such argument. Secondly, claims that the Russians are too sophisticated to do X does not really overcome evidence that they actually did X. Again, such arguments are secondary arguments to use when there is no primary evidence or alternatively when you don't understand the evidence. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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