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Author | Topic: The 2016 United States Presidential Election | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Hi Frako - this may only be the Wiki page on this guy's activities, but there's enough there to think he might not be the best comedy candidate to choose.
Greater Wynnewood Exotic Animal Park - WikipediaCould there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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There is nothing to like about nuclear war, and sometimes I wonder if Trump supporters understand that. Year on year, decade after decade, our societies have pandered more and more to the lowest common denominator. Aspiration for education, a better life for you and your children, a more fulfilling existence has been replaced with the simple sell of the quick buck and the easy gratification of our simplest desires. Because that's where the greatest and easiest corporate profit lies. And now we reap what we sow. The lowest common denominator has been led to believe that simplicity and stupidity is a path to happiness - and they are beating that path in a terrifying manner. If you do manage to defeat Trump this time out, and I dearly hope you do, the first order of business is to work out how to reach out to his support base, and bring at least some of them back to a sane place. At some point, having ignored them, we will end up in a world of hurt. Off-topic, but this is how I see the Brexit result coming to pass. I really hope you can avoid our mistake.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Curiously, I want a leader that makes the right initial choices. Well, you'll have no worries on that score with Trump.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
It was more a comment that even in a tight fought binary choice between Clinton and the worst arse wipe that could possibly be chosen, we were still hearing a steady stream of negativity from the progressive left towards Clinton. I don't know if this swayed the result, from the detailed voting data - but I suspect it had an impact.
She wasn't perfect, by any means (cue another condescending list of statements and photos from dronestar , coupled with an accusation that I am understating the position and not as left wing as him and therefore a monster), but she was the only alternative you had. However heartfelt, genuine and accurate statements were, in the lead-up to the election, that eg she makes bad choices and would therefore be a bad leader, the only impact they could possibly have had at that time was to benefit Trump. The time to have had that debate would have been after a Clinton win, in the better of two bad scenarios, wouldn't it ?Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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That I agree with (although I would add that after Bernie lost the primary (however unfairly), then the Clinton negativity could usefully have been suspended more than it was from those who disagreed with the primary outcome, but there you go).
I echo what I hear from you, which is that something now has to be done to level the playing field back again. In the UK too, we're hearing increasingly strident right wing extremism from certain quarters, claiming to speak for "the people". Suggestions that our institutions need tearing down, or democratic protections (such as the independence of the judiciary) need removing. This is so dangerous, it makes me feel sick - but any voices raised against this right wing rhetoric are shouted down as politically correct, or left wing press, and that received "wisdom" is lapped up by large numbers of people. We need to speak to the large parts of our countries who are listening to this right wing rhetoric, and listen to them. Understand them. Speak with them. But most of all, listen. Because as you rightly say, if we don't offer them an alternative path to a better future, they'll believe that the better future lies in the nationalistic, xenophobic, neanderthal vision of the Farages/Trumps/Putins. There has to be a counterbalance, which is realistic and attractive. There's a quotation at the entrance to the visitors' centre at the holocaust memorial in Berlin. I forget the exact words, and will try to look them up. But it's along the lines "We know it can happen again, because we know it's already happened."Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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I just found the quotation. It's by Primo Levi, an Auschwitz survivor: "It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere."
Much more elegant than my poor recollection.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
That's going to end well, right? Probably depends upon how much pressure Trump's fellow business men and women (not that he'd listen to the latter) can bring to bear if China tells its oligarchs to invest elsewhere. The Wall St Journal reported on 12 April that Chinese firms were expected to invest $20-30 billion in the US in 2016 - which is not an enormous percentage of the economy, but important to a number of very influential business people. And yes, the trade deficit means that it's important for China to keep selling stuff to the US (those free burger toys won't be quite as free if the US has to start manufacturing them) - but the influential business people don't want that boat rocked too much - they won't be able to afford quite so many racehorses/jets/yachts and won't be able to keep up with the Abramovic's - and they just couldn't beaaaaaar that ;-) I'm not convinced yet that big money can stop the idiot actually kicking off a war - but I suspect they're one of our best hopes of reining him in. Edited by vimesey, : Autocorrect typoCould there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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In my view, it is far too big a political risk to lie about something that unequivocal at this stage. As NoNukes has said, they have to present classified evidence to members of the Houses, and for them to lie would be a blatant piece of political suicide. Can't see them being that stupid. They have to have something pretty solid, in order to be that unequivocal in public.
(Just to clarify - I don't think the CIA are incapable of lying (hell, it's an essential skill in that line of work) - I just don't think they'd lie stupidly.) Edited by vimesey, : ClarificationCould there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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But as jar has pointed out, it was the politicians who ran out the argument that WMD's existed. The intelligence agencies themselves were very quiet.
In this case, the CIA itself is publicly stating that Russia sought to influence the elections. That is an extremely big claim, with almost no upside for them, and huge downsides. If they are simply lying, then my point is that it is a far more stupid lie to go public with, than I would give them discredit for. As a result, on balance, I don't think they're lying. Wrong, maybe - duped, possibly - but not stupid enough to be lying.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Again, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other I'm just very sceptical. Skepticism is healthy, where it refers to a process of questioning received wisdom and not accepting it without question. When skepticism becomes cynicism, then I have greater concerns. I have recently heard someone say "I don't believe a word any so-called expert says" (ironically, a few days before they were due to go into hospital for an operation). That person is not someone whose opinion I value. My own experience of experts is that I have never had one lie to me that I am aware of; in broad terms, they get paid well to look after my interests in ways I don't properly understand; they are well trained in their field; and always willing to try to explain things to me. I think healthy skepticism is indeed to question expert opinion - but not to believe it to be false at the very outset, without good evidence, directly connected to the opinion (or at least to a well established pattern of behaviour). For me, any complicity the CIA may have had in the Bush administration's lies as to WMDs, is not sufficient evidence for me to dismiss their assessment as to Russian involvement in the election. Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
I have no idea who Crowdstrike are or aren't. I would need to find out more about them.
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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