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Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Welfare - what is it and who benefits | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
What would be the point of such a classification? What if it turned out that 50% of married women were stay-at-home moms? Would that be a bad thing? No, that is why I said they should be counted as underemployed -- they don't get full compensation for being a child caregiver ... tax breaks are minimal, and even professional caregivers are typically underpaid.
Being a stay-at-home parent is only a negative thing if the parents have not decided that staying at home is in the interest of their family. With a guaranteed living income more parents could afford to stay home and provide this critical care, certainly through the early years. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Well I think we know for sure that people are universally the same - on average. But we also know that they individually differ. And a very common feature of individuals that make and run large corporations is psychopathy. So go figure. So capitalism tends to select for (rewards) individuals that are pathological liars, cheaters and scammers, and thus they benefit more from the capitalist system.
This is why we have laws and regulated capitalism - to differing degrees. Indeed, and we can compare different systems for their degree of success in spreading the benefits of capitalism (the generation of profits) and ameliorating the disadvantages of capitalism (ecological destruction, poverty, pollution, etc). We can do it with specific programs (minimum wages for example and between states in the US (Wisconsin vs Minnesota for example) and we can do it between nations (social democracies in Europe vs hyper capitalist countries like the US). In every case the more socialist programs result in greater general wealth, health and happiness. As social systems evolve we see a trend towards increased social programs being democratically applied, universal health care, free university, etc etc etc, and the logical next step is a guaranteed living income. Especially as production become more automated and fewer workers are needed, but consumers are still needed to consume the products. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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And that has always been the crux of the issue when it comes socialism -- the human condition. You talk about income inequality as if some people are intentionally holding other people down but make no mention of the inequality of effort where one person has to bust their ass to feed someone who knows they can live off the forced charity of a system. ... This falls under the 2nd Myth -- that Welfare Recipients Are Lazy. quote: So, sorry, but "that dog don't hunt"
The Nordic system you refer to is crumbling under its own weight. ... Is this just another fake conservative news meme or do you have real data to back that up?
... They have a massive housing crisis in places like Sweden due largely in part to an influx in a migrant population that is eating its reserves without replenishing it. ... So the fault\cause of the problem is not the socio-economic system per se but the immigration crisis ... last I heard this was affecting all European countries indiscriminate of their governmental socio-economic system. Curiously I don't consider Germany to be overly socialistic.
... The hilarious thing is that you have no problem watching this fitness in action in biological, evolutionary terms. THAT is truly amoral -- neither moral nor immoral. It's just the reality. And the reality that you prefer not to recognize is that none of us deserve jack shit. Not a single one of us. Just because we're out of the forests doesn't mean that survival of the fittest no longer applies. We have to fight our lives every single day. There are winners in that game and there are losers. AH yes the old fallacy of Social Darwinism ... when the fact is that we evolved to be social animals that take care of those in our tribe, young, elderly, disabled, and that the default "economy" of tribes is to share. We just had a discussion around altruism on The implications of Evolution and how it evolves is social organisms, and how game theory shows it to have advantages.
Amoral or immoral? Amoral. Pathological people don't go against their morals to behave the way they do, they think it is normal, and in extreme cases take pride in it. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
continuing ...
Now, since humans have more or less decided to get together for the betterment of our species as a collective way to maximize our survival, I would agree that safety nets ought to be in place in the form of unemployment insurance and to a lesser degree welfare, but to think that expanding the welfare state is the answer is extremely naive. People should be incentivized towards self-sufficiency. Some people legitimately cannot and it is those people that the system was designed for. But as we see in this country, almost a 3rd of the nation is on some form of welfare... Ridiculous. And unnecessary. This falls under the 6th Myth -- that Welfare Is Not Effective quote: ... I would agree that safety nets ought to be in place in the form of unemployment insurance ... And how do you deal with the unemployment caused by increased automation? People who never had a chance to get a good paying job because the grew up in a declining job market? Consider that these programs provide a minimal living income, and that if this were universal that it would benefit society and the economy:
With automation becoming an increasing reality, this is the only solution I see against massive starvation and poverty. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
The idea that most people on welfare are able-bodied adults who are just too lazy to get a job and make an honest living is utterly false. So then you honestly believe that upwards of 25% of the population is so infirm that they can't reasonably take care of themselves? That belies all credibility, sir.
Is this just another fake conservative news meme or do you have real data to back that up? This is in PDF version, so I can't link it any other way on this site.Just a moment... So the fault\cause of the problem is not the socio-economic system per se but the immigration crisis ... last I heard this was affecting all European countries indiscriminate of their governmental socio-economic system. Curiously I don't consider Germany to be overly socialistic. The migrant crisis is massively contributing to it due to a shortage in homes, a lack of assimilation, deep resentment on both sides, etc... But bringing Germany up is actually a great reference in the sense that she and France have been propping up the rest of the EU for close to a decade now. Places like Greece, which is as socialist as it gets, is a failed state at this point because it tries to eat its own flesh in the sense that it parasites off of the working class to fund the failed and corrupt government through the barrel of a gun.
AH yes the old fallacy of Social Darwinism ... when the fact is that we evolved to be social animals that take care of those in our tribe, young, elderly, disabled, and that the default "economy" of tribes is to share. Yeah, exactly, OUR tribe... The problem is that you attribute "our tribe" to be the entire human race, which history and anthropology would strenuously disagree with. I agree that in truly small, communal communities that a form of socialism and communism can and does work. The problem is the people that think you can just magically extrapolate it on a grand scale and achieve the same results. History demonstrates ad naseum that it cannot."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2416 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined:
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I don't consider people not looking for work as unemployed, whereas this seems to assume that everyone capable of working should work. The figure of 1.3m hidden unemployed is taken from the much larger figure of 6.3m not in the workforce. Of those 6.3m, 1.3m can and do want to work but simply aren't actively looking for whatever reason. So it represent those students and parents who do want to work, it does not suggest that those who don't want to should. Hopefully that clears it up a bit.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Of those 6.3m, 1.3m can and do want to work but simply aren't actively looking for whatever reason. That's understood. But unless the reasons are explored, and parsed out, that 1.3 million figure really does not tell us all that much. Some of these reasons are things that we ought to deal with, while other reasons are strictly personal. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
quote: It's not just that it makes it easier for the welfare critics to take help away, whatever that means, it's also part of the human condition. Working hard on a project while that one guy in the group doen't do anything sucks, but capitalizing on that reward drives you to do it anyways. Trying to make that out as some kind of pathology is a little disgusting, at face value. I haven't read this thread, and I'm not sure I want to...
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2416 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
I see no point in quibbling over the hidden unemployment figure. My point is still valid even ignoring those 1.3m 'hidden unemployed' given the ratio is still more than 10 to 1.
Conservatives like to assume they are all lazy or playing the system but most of them simply can't get a job because there aren't enough to go around.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I see no point in quibbling over the hidden unemployment figure. My point is still valid even ignoring those 1.3m 'hidden unemployed' given the ratio is still more than 10 to 1 In fact, the ratio has nothing to do with those hidden unemployed folk. If you were able to get those folks out on the pavement with resumes in hand, the ratio of seekers to jobs would become even larger. Yeah, I get your point. The official number in the US is much lower. With ratios as high as you say, a safety net is imperative. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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vimesey Member (Idle past 99 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
I don't think things are as binary as the extremes of both sides make out.
There are people who take the piss out of the welfare system. That's unfair and wrong, and it's right to stop that. There are people who need a welfare system, because through no fault of their own, they can't do what a large number of us can to earn our way. Sometimes this is temporary, sometimes permanent. But it is a decent and proper thing for society to do, to help them out. A welfare system should exist to help people in an unfortunate position. And those people who are not in an unfortunate position and choose to abuse welfare should be stopped. That, I think, is the extent of the moral position. The pragmatics of delivering that is what keeps people scratching their heads.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
they don't get full compensation for being a child caregiver No, they don't. I don't get compensated for making my bed or doing my laundry either. I think it is difficult to make the case that you should be compensated for raising your own kids. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
NoNukes writes:
they don't get full compensation for being a child caregiver No, they don't. Yeah...tell that to the divorce lawyers....- xongsmith, 5.7d
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
RAZD writes:
Unemployment creates a lot of work for the people doing the hiring.
When I was employed (by a town), I was hiring technical staff to fill out a new department, and I had ~200 applications for one job.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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This is in PDF version, so I can't link it any other way on this site. Just a moment... I signed up for free permission to see this, but am still waiting for final approval.
So then you honestly believe that upwards of 25% of the population is so infirm that they can't reasonably take care of themselves? That belies all credibility, sir. Not at all. What the data shows is that most people on various welfare programs ARE working, sometimes 2 or 3 jobs, but the PAY is not enough to live on and they qualify for benefits because their income is low. This is where minimum wage comes in -- because those companies that pay workers so low they qualify for welfare means those companies are sucking money out of the workers ... AND the taxpayers.
The migrant crisis is massively contributing to it due to a shortage in homes, a lack of assimilation, deep resentment on both sides, etc... I'll wait for the article before I respond in full, but I don't think you can blame the more socially developed countries for failing from this cause. In the long run this should balance out as more immigrants find work and contribute back to the system.
... But bringing Germany up is actually a great reference in the sense that she and France have been propping up the rest of the EU for close to a decade now. Places like Greece, ... The problems in Greece were exacerbated by the banking collapse and by greedy bankers in Germany and the US, etc, buying up the debt and then imposing rapacious interest on them. They have aggravated the problem further by insisting on austerity measures that virtually guarantee an inability to grow and recover.
... it tries to eat its own flesh in the sense that it parasites off of the working class to fund the failed and corrupt government through the barrel of a gun. So again, the problem is not the socialist programs per se but the corruption in government.
Yeah, exactly, OUR tribe... The problem is that you attribute "our tribe" to be the entire human race, which history and anthropology would strenuously disagree with. ... The problem is the people that think you can just magically extrapolate it on a grand scale and achieve the same results. ... The more socially evolved you are the larger your tribe. I consider that conservatives have more "them" than "us" while progressives have more "us" than "them" in their equations. We are all siblings.
... I agree that in truly small, communal communities that a form of socialism and communism can and does work. ... Because it is easier to work in small groups, but that doesn't really mean there isn't opportunity to grow. An economic system where the economy is basically capitalistic, but the corporations are worker owned democratically run co-ops would be an improvement over one where corporations are run by elites as small feudal kingdoms. We wage a revolutionary war to rid ourselves of feudalistic top-down government, why should we tolerate it in corporations?
... History demonstrates ad naseum that it cannot. Except for where it does work, and where it does work is where the government is democratic and the people decide how the benefits of the capitalistic economy are shared among the people. Where social programs temper the evils of unfettered capitalism for the benefit of the general population. The World Happiness Survey was done by the UN to measure and compare countries on national happiness:
quote: Curious that all the countries that rank higher than the US have more socialistic programs, from universal healthcare to free college education. They have more family leave, vacation time, and larger benefits for unemployment and social assistance.
... History demonstrates ad naseum that it cannot. History demonstrates ad nauseum that democratic socialist countries succeed in providing more overall happiness for their populations. Democracy works best, imho, when the population is well educated, healthy and properly compensated for work. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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