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Author Topic:   Science proves that the tomb of Jesus (Christ ?)and James the Just have been found.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 114 (797205)
01-14-2017 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
01-13-2017 4:29 PM


Conclusion
Im not sure I believe any of this. What possible use is this article? If Jesus was buried with his family, that shoots a hole in all of the Bible stories...which could possibly be the motive of the study. Whats your personal opinion, LNA?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-13-2017 4:29 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2017 3:48 AM Phat has replied
 Message 28 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-19-2017 3:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-20-2017 11:05 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 114 (797220)
01-15-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
01-15-2017 3:48 AM


Re: Conclusion
To be honest, what annoys me is not the research so much as LNA's search for nonsense. This is not a Faith & Belief topic.
Of course if it actually did show that it would make no difference to believers, they'll carry on believing no matter what the evidence. Their beliefs originate in their own mind, not reality.
Reality does not originate in our own minds either.
Beliefs originate from the acceptance or denial of the object of belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2017 3:48 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2017 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 114 (797221)
01-15-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
01-13-2017 4:29 PM


LNA writes:
I'm not a scientist but it is amazing that we seem to have stunning cumulative evidence
Evidence of what? More to the point...how is this a Faith topic? What is it that the evidence will strengthen your faith in?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-13-2017 4:29 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 01-15-2017 12:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 114 (797225)
01-15-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
01-15-2017 12:10 PM


Faith and Science
are you suggesting that all make believe stuff is in the same category? If so I agree...all the stuff that humans invented through stories. Of course, this argument carries over to beliefs within organized religions....in which case I would recommend you go with jars philosophies as no God is even required in order to do them.
Or just go with Stile and try and find your own world view.
My view is that this stuff is not made up. Of course, I have no way of proving this to you guys, and quite frankly I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time trying.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 01-15-2017 12:10 PM Porosity has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Porosity, posted 01-15-2017 4:04 PM Phat has replied
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2017 6:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 114 (797249)
01-16-2017 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Porosity
01-15-2017 4:04 PM


Re: Faith and Science
That's why we have science.
If you can't science that shit, then there's a good chance it's made up and you're probably wasting your life away to a delusion.
Science was never meant to replace belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Porosity, posted 01-15-2017 4:04 PM Porosity has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 11:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 114 (797250)
01-16-2017 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
01-15-2017 6:16 PM


Re: Faith and Science
To be honest, my beliefs are irrational. They are taken in whatever context I choose them to be, from whatever source. To me and me alone they make sense. And yet I am honest with myself about them. Here they are, in a nutshell:
1) Humans do not have the capability of correcting our nature so as to facilitate a long life of discovery, prosperity, and social justice within our global community.
The Bible was written not just for the people of its time but for our time.
2) There is a spiritual war. Humans are being tested as to our loyalty, commitment, and tenacity. What obviously seems logical and evidence based is, in fact, a delusion. (when it comes to Jesus Christ, evidence-based thinking will never find Him.
3) Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. All that people are asked to do is believe, God Himself will take care of the rest.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2017 6:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 01-16-2017 8:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 114 (797411)
01-20-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
01-20-2017 3:19 AM


Re: Conclusion
Yes, it did throw doubt. In my opinion, there is a motive to distract people from the truth. You call it a myth, I know. Lack of evidence, you say. I try and explain that faith comes by hearing and believing. You cite evidence to dismiss the story.
My irritation arises because people seem to want to not believe rather than to believe. You would perhaps say that you prefer reality over fantasy. I would tell you that reality is not always how it appears and that belief will be helpful.
You may ask how. I'm still thinking how to answer you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2017 3:19 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2017 12:57 PM Phat has replied
 Message 78 by Aussie, posted 11-22-2017 1:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 114 (797440)
01-20-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
01-20-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Conclusion
This so called evidence is far from conclusive. My beliefs, in contrast, have been talked about by billions of people for hundreds of years. If this evidence turned out to be valid, few people would give it so much as a nod.
What gets me is how much some people want to jump at evidence as if it could tell them anything that could actually help them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-20-2017 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Porosity, posted 01-20-2017 1:09 PM Phat has not replied
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 Message 43 by ringo, posted 01-23-2017 10:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 114 (797455)
01-21-2017 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tangle
01-20-2017 12:57 PM


Re: Conclusion
Tangle writes:
I'm sure you'll find some language. I'm equally sure I won't have a clue what it means and that I'll be reasonably certain that it's just a pulpity mash-up. But I'm all ears.
I am thinking about this topic tonight...before i retire for the evening. I originally became a believer when I attended a church and after a couple of weeks answered an "altar call". Quite honestly I was unprepared for the change that I felt. Many people report the same "born again" transformation. Is there any ready explanation for it?
Now...years have passed and I am learning a lot of how others think. (Particularly here at EvC) Few if any of my believing friends are interested in challenging or disproving their beliefs as I am. This is one red flag. The evidence that Christians, in general, are no more moral than non-believers is also of interest.
So why do I keep it up?(This belief thing) The answer is that I honestly believe that I am in a communion with God. I dont believe that evidence apart from my subjective experience influences me that much.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2017 12:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2017 5:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 114 (822985)
11-04-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
01-20-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Conclusion
ringo writes:
Why is it that believers are skeptical about evidence but not about unevidenced beliefs?
I cannot speak for all believers of course but one reason may be that some of us do not trust the motivation of those who go out of their way to gather evidence against the plausibility of Jesus existing, for example. They never get this bent out of shape over other historical and/or mythological characters.
I recently read a good article, Forget Santa Claus, Virginia. Was there a Jesus Christ?
Theodoric mentioned three scholars who, according to this article based on their approach are labeled as The New Atheists. Faith mentioned Bruce Metzger, of whom one of his best students was Bart Ehrman. Ehrman is an agnostic who has an impressive scholarly background and who supports the idea of a Historical Jesus...whereas many of the new atheists deny even that.
quote:
I consider them atheist fundamentalists. They're anti-religious, and they're mean-spirited, unfortunately. Now, there are very good atheists and very dedicated people who do not believe in God. But you have this aggressive and militant phase of atheism, and that does more damage than good. Paul Kurtz
To their credit, the New Atheists oppose religion blending with politics.
The Guardian writes:
What's clear is that this wave of New Atheism is deeply political - and against some of its targets even a devout churchgoer might cheer them on. What they all have in common is a loathing of an increasing religiosity in US politics, which has contributed to a disastrous presidency and undermined scientific understanding. Dennett excoriates the madness of a faith that looks forward to the end of the world and the return of the Messiah. What Dawkins hates is that most Americans still haven't accepted evolution and support the teaching of intelligent design; according to one poll, 50% of the US electorate believe the story of Noah. He argues that "there is nothing to choose between the Afghan Taliban and the American Christian equivalent ... The genie of religious fanaticism is rampant in present-day America."
This debate is far from over, but I fear that the Christians have few intellectual weapons on their side. Ehrman, an agnostic, actually makes the most sense in my mind.
Ehrman writes:
Believers and skeptics can argue with each other, and among themselves, about exactly who Jesus was and what he meant, Ehrman said in an interview. But arguing that Jesus did not exist is such a ridiculous proposition.
Ehrman said beyond the non-Christian references to Jesus from the era, scholars can plausibly trace elements in the Gospels to shortly after the time Jesus was killed. That fact, and the historical details in the Gospels have convinced virtually every scholar in the Western world that Jesus existed.
He also noted that while the Apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh a point the Jesus deniers often make in his many New Testament writings Paul mentions that he does know Jesus’ brother, James. If Jesus didn’t exist, you’d think his brother would know about it! Ehrman said with a laugh.
But to Ehrman, the most convincing argument that Jesus was a real person is that it would have made no sense to invent a crucified messiah because that is the opposite of what everyone was expecting at the time. In other words, it wasn’t a good sales pitch.
Besides, if Jesus was the product of a conspiracy, one would think that the conspirators would have gotten their stories straight and not have left lots of conflicting details.
Some of these arguments mirror our arguments here at EvC. Their thesis generally includes a number of arguments:
  • The Gospels were written decades after Jesus supposedly lived.
  • They are unreliable because they were written by promoters of the Christian myth.
  • The Gospel accounts are suspiciously incomplete, with few details of Jesus’ life.
  • Many elements of the Gospels conflict or contradict each other.
  • There are no contemporary references to Jesus from non-Christian sources.
  • The death and resurrection of Jesus mirrors other pagan myths of the time.
    It is ironic that an agnostic can defend the Christian position better than believing Christians can!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-20-2017 11:05 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 2:08 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 57 of 114 (823057)
    11-05-2017 3:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
    11-05-2017 2:08 PM


    Metaphors Galore
    ringo writes:
    Suppose your postman was cheating on his wife. Would you tear up the cheque he brings?
    Let's get our metaphors straight. A postman is a messenger who delivers messages originating from others. Jesus is more than just the messenger. In my belief, of course. Metaphorically speaking, I would be the postman's wife whom he was cheating on, in which case I dunno what I would do!
    Of course, if we base the Bride of Christ metaphor on only the church we then circle back into our sheep and goats judgment. Imagine how the Bride(goats) would feel if her husband was cheating on her with *gasp* atheists and Wiccans!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 2:08 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by ringo, posted 11-06-2017 10:40 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 114 (823900)
    11-19-2017 3:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
    11-06-2017 10:40 AM


    Re: Metaphors Galore
    ringo writes:
    The question remains: What would you do with the cheque?
    I would cash it of course. The morality of that particular messenger does not concern me so much as his ability to do his job well, which is to bring me my cheques.
    ***********************************************
    LamarkNewAge, I attempt to read your lengthy cut & pastes in the interest of determining whether or not you have a sound argument. I must say, however, that I don't follow your deductive reasoning as easily as you yourself do, and I suspect that nobody else does either. It is a strange way to learn about things...googling, and letting a search engine bring stuff up. It almost seems like you have a conclusion in mind before you even google--otherwise, how would you know which search terms to put into the engine?
    Granted I don't particularly like Richard Carrier---I honestly think that some of these learned types have a major axe to grind with Christianity and Jesus Christ, and I dont trust the validity of much of their conclusions.
    Its hard for me to get a handle on what your personal beliefs are, however. The answer is not found through search engines, in my opinion...but perhaps you can enlighten me on your personal belief and philosophy regarding this overused tool of discovery and where the search ends.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by ringo, posted 11-06-2017 10:40 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by ringo, posted 11-19-2017 1:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 67 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-19-2017 10:14 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 61 of 114 (823902)
    11-19-2017 3:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
    11-05-2017 2:08 PM


    Re: Conclusion
    ringo writes:
    You'd want to know the truth, wouldn't you? So why do YOU get bent out of shape if people want to know the truth about Jesus?
    First, I don't trust the sources. I believe (insanely I'll admit) that there is a spiritual war being fought on this planet. These debunkers have a major ax to grind and are not at all interested in Jesus being real--they go out of their way to disprove and discredit the stories. Granted they have an evidenced and persuasive argument---but only persuasive to those predisposed to finding an excuse why Christianity, as marketed, is bunk. Perhaps critics could and will accuse me of confirmation bias. And at the end of the day that's what it always gets down to, isn't it? I want and need a God Who is on my side...not an expose of how religions have manipulated and controlled a world for ages.
    Perhaps they are slaying a sacred cow right in front of me...but their motive seems against what my motive is. Yes, I suspect that there is a diabolical evil behind the attempts at expose.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 2:08 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 62 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2017 9:04 AM Phat has replied
     Message 66 by ringo, posted 11-19-2017 1:34 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 63 of 114 (823914)
    11-19-2017 9:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
    11-19-2017 9:04 AM


    Re: Conclusion
    I've never said that you were diabolical. I am not referring to you, Tangle. I told you how I felt about you on the other topic. I am referring to the New Atheists...Carrier et al. You have never had an ax to grind against Jesus...only against organized religion.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2017 9:04 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2017 9:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 68 of 114 (823944)
    11-20-2017 2:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 67 by LamarkNewAge
    11-19-2017 10:14 PM


    Re: "Mariamne is the name of Mary Magdalene...that’s the missing piece, that’s the Ringo"
    but what do your quoted sources know that other sources missed? What is it that makes you trust these sources? Seems to me to be a lot of googling of information with little evidence of authenticity. Or perhaps you see or know something that I missed....

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-19-2017 10:14 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 70 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-20-2017 11:54 PM Phat has replied

      
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