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Author Topic:   Science proves that the tomb of Jesus (Christ ?)and James the Just have been found.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 5 of 114 (797215)
01-15-2017 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
01-14-2017 2:32 PM


Re: Conclusion
Phat writes:
What possible use is this article?
What a strange question. It's research into the veracity of an important piece of our history. Why wouldn't that be useful regardless of what the findings are?
If Jesus was buried with his family, that shoots a hole in all of the Bible stories....
And what if it did? Is it therefore not to be done? Of course if it actually did show that it would make no difference to believers, they'll carry on believing no matter what the evidence. Their beliefs originate in their own mind, not reality.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 01-14-2017 2:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 01-15-2017 11:46 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2017 2:52 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 10 of 114 (797224)
01-15-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
01-15-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Conclusion
Phat writes:
To be honest, what annoys me is not the research so much as LNA's search for nonsense.
I can agree with that :-)
Reality does not originate in our own minds either.
Well no, it originates outside our minds and is interpreted within them.
Beliefs originate from the acceptance or denial of the object of belief.
I can't make that make sense for me I'm afraid. But the distinction is that a belief is ONLY in the mind - it doesn't exist anywhere else. Unlike, say a 2,000 year old tomb.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 01-15-2017 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 13 of 114 (797233)
01-15-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
01-15-2017 3:28 PM


Re: Faith and Science
Phat writes:
My view is that this stuff is not made up.
We know.
Of course, I have no way of proving this to you guys
This is because it's internal to you, and only to you. Subjective.
I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time trying.
Of course you are. Well you are if you're hoping to change anybody's mind about anything. So you have to ask why you're here - as do the rest of us. I'm here because I like argument and I'm tying to understand why people with beliefs that I find preposterous and utterly indefensible hold them despite the evidence against them.
I sense that you're here to explain to yourself why you hold them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 01-15-2017 3:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 6:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 15 of 114 (797242)
01-16-2017 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by NoNukes
01-16-2017 2:52 AM


Re: Conclusion
NoNukes writes:
It may be useful, although it is difficult to sift through the OP and determine how it might be useful.
Agreed. As usual, Lamark has produced a long and convoluted post of the kind I rarely if ever bother reading - they all seem manic. On this occasion I just went to the wiki page to find wtf he was taking about.
On the other hand, I don't think this message fits in the Faith and Belief section. Generally speaking, science stuff is not the accepted line of argument in such forums. In this forum, remarking that the idea that Jesus is buried in any tomb is counter-textual is a perfectly legitimate comment.
Where a post is put doesn't interest me as much as what is being said. Challenging the idea on a posting technicality seems a bit churlish; personally I thought the idea that Jesus was buried in a family tomb frightened Phat somewhat and he wanted it closed down.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2017 2:52 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2017 3:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 18 of 114 (797252)
01-16-2017 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
01-16-2017 6:50 AM


Re: Faith and Science
Phat writes:
To be honest, my beliefs are irrational. They are taken in whatever context I choose them to be, from whatever source. To me and me alone they make sense. And yet I am honest with myself about them.
All beliefs are irrational if not founded on evidence so yes, your beliefs are irrational. We sort of know this :-)
1) Humans do not have the capability of correcting our nature so as to facilitate a long life of discovery, prosperity, and social justice within our global community.
The Bible was written not just for the people of its time but for our time.
This is not a belief that is sustainable, it's an error of judgement tainted by your beliefs. On every measurable level human society has improved and is still improving since your god died.
2) There is a spiritual war. Humans are being tested as to our loyalty, commitment, and tenacity.
Tested against what? By what? What war? I can't make sense of this.
What obviously seems logical and evidence based is, in fact, a delusion.
This doesn't make sense. What is evidenced based is logical
(when it comes to Jesus Christ, evidence-based thinking will never find Him.
Agreed. Which is why there's a problem.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. All that people are asked to do is believe, God Himself will take care of the rest.
Well I don't hear it. Nor do billions of others. what kind of god needs to be believed, then hides away only apparently talking to a few people?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 6:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 26 of 114 (797308)
01-16-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by NoNukes
01-16-2017 3:26 PM


Re: Conclusion
NoNukes writes:
Is it your understanding that there is a historical Jesus?
I think it is marginally more likely than not that someone called Jesus existed - but not, of course, that he was anything but human.
If not, then what is likely about claims that some artifact is Jesus tomb?
I haven't said it's likely. It seems to me that it's going to be impossible to prove one way or another. My point was about how Phat reacted, not about the veracity of the claim.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2017 3:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Modulous, posted 01-16-2017 4:18 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 01-19-2017 9:38 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 30 of 114 (797408)
01-20-2017 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
01-19-2017 9:38 PM


Re: Conclusion
NoNukes writes:
Almost certainly, any claim that the tomb is that of the Jesus described in the Bible is wrong.
Well that's your assertion. I'd say that the story is so riddled with evidential difficulties as to be almost worthless.
The questions I actually asked you were 1) whether you believed that the Jesus in the Bible is a historical figure,
And I answered that I thought it more likely than not
and given your answer 2) Does this inquiry LNA describes help you in reaching either conclusion?
No.
But none of that has anything to do with my reply to Phat who appeared to be objecting to it simply because it threw doubt on the biblical myth of ascension.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 01-19-2017 9:38 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 01-20-2017 7:05 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 01-20-2017 3:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 34 of 114 (797441)
01-20-2017 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
01-20-2017 7:05 AM


Re: Conclusion
Phat writes:
My irritation arises because people seem to want to not believe rather than to believe.
I think it more likely that some people who do not believe are keen to find disproofs of religious stories so they can show that they are right. As you say, if it could be conclusively shown that Jesus's body was buried, the main plank of the Jesus story disintegrates. Of course this wouldn't bother most Christians, a linguistic work-around would be found. "It was metaphorical not real" etc.
You would perhaps say that you prefer reality over fantasy.
Indeed
I would tell you that reality is not always how it appears and that belief will be helpful.
Well you say any number of things that I find utterly meanigless Phat - and that's one of them :-).
You may ask how. I'm still thinking how to answer you.
I'm sure you'll find some language. I'm equally sure I won't have a clue what it means and that I'll be reasonably certain that it's just a pulpity mash-up. But I'm all ears.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 01-20-2017 7:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 38 of 114 (797447)
01-20-2017 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
01-20-2017 3:48 PM


Re: Conclusion
NoNukes writes:
What you said was that more likely than not somebody back then was named Jesus. "Historical Jesus" implies somebody both named Jesus and at least tied to the stories in the Bible.
Ffs. What are you on?
Do you really think I might not be aware that the name Jesus is not unique to the mythical son of god? Do you really think that when I'm answering a question about Jesus(TM) I'm referring to some other random Jesus that I've deliberately not informed you of?
Pull your head out of your arse, Phat has already accepted my point - you're away with your own fairies.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 01-20-2017 3:48 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by NoNukes, posted 01-20-2017 7:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 40 of 114 (797454)
01-21-2017 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by NoNukes
01-20-2017 7:22 PM


Re: Conclusion
NoNukes writes:
Here is what you actually said, Tangle.
So I have to repeat myself. You think that when I said....
"I think it is marginally more likely than not that someone called Jesus existed - but not, of course, that he was anything but human."
....I was referring to a random Jesus that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus in the bible?
To prevent this going on any further, I'm not.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by NoNukes, posted 01-20-2017 7:22 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 42 of 114 (797458)
01-21-2017 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
01-21-2017 4:32 AM


Re: Conclusion
Phat writes:
I originally became a believer when I attended a church and after a couple of weeks answered an "altar call". Quite honestly I was unprepared for the change that I felt. Many people report the same "born again" transformation. Is there any ready explanation for it?
Belief is a brain function, neuroscience says that it's a function of memory. Memory is related to learning and it's really important to understand that your belief has been learnt.
Your believe was learnt. It didn't just pop into your head from God
You can prove this to yourself by asking yourself why your belief is not in Hinduism or Janeism? There has never been anybody anywhere that independently became a Christian or a Hindu or a Janeite. They all had to have learnt of these things before it could happen. Your brain is programmed in such a way as to accept inputs if heard enough and in times of stress or anxiety some beliefs/delusions are triggered strongly. This is a bit of a starter.
Where belief is born | Psychology | The Guardian
Now...years have passed and I am learning a lot of how others think. (Particularly here at EvC) Few if any of my believing friends are interested in challenging or disproving their beliefs as I am. This is one red flag. The evidence that Christians, in general, are no more moral than non-believers is also of interest.
The way beliefs persist and propagate is by blocking inputs that question them and by constant reinforcement from those of similar minds - the echo chamber. They only change when they are exposed to different ideas over a long period. You should take it as a red flag that your believing friends won't entertain counter argument. And, by the way, and as you point out, it's a real fright that your beliefs make you superior moral beings. It should be clear that people that don't hold your beliefs are capable of at least equivalent morality and behaviour. And if you look at how fundamental belivers behave, you must recognise that their morality is at least questionable.
The answer is that I honestly believe that I am in a communion with God. I dont believe that evidence apart from my subjective experience influences me that much.
And that is the literal definition of a delusion. No different than the people in the link above.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 62 of 114 (823913)
11-19-2017 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
11-19-2017 3:13 AM


Re: Conclusion
Phat writes:
Perhaps they are slaying a sacred cow right in front of me...but their motive seems against what my motive is. Yes, I suspect that there is a diabolical evil behind the attempts at expose.
Good grief....I'm now diabolical. This is very, very primitive stuff

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 3:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 64 of 114 (823918)
11-19-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
11-19-2017 9:10 AM


Re: Conclusion
Phat writes:
You have never had an ax to grind against Jesus...only against organized religion.
You think Dan Dennet, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris et al have an axe to grind against Jesus? Wow have you missed the point. They're intellectual atheists, they have nothing against Jesus, it's not personal.
'Struth, you believer always find new ways to surprise me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 104 of 114 (824827)
12-04-2017 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by kbertsche
12-03-2017 5:22 PM


Re: Science can actually be flawed massively?
Kb writes:
It is natural to expect that the religious leanings of the early scientists was simply a reflection of their society. But this is wrong.
It's not wrong, pretty much everybody in 17th century England was a believer - it was almost impossible not to be.
The science that the early scientists played with was not a challenge to religion so there was no difficulty with it - until it contradicted areas of belief and we all know what happened then.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by kbertsche, posted 12-03-2017 5:22 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
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