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Author | Topic: The Great Creationist Fossil Failure | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Nah. They don't show gradual changes. Even according to evolutionary time frames gibbons and monkeys co-existed 20 million years ago as they do today. Just because they have not found a great ape in those layers does not prove evolution, it just means the great apes were not as mobile or fast breeding as they spread out from the ark. ie they were only found in later layers.
If you are just going to spout nonsense, don't bother. Your beliefs and imaginings are not supported by the evidence. First, gibbons and virtually all monkeys are not in the human ancestral line, and second, they indeed did change in the past 20,000 years. And the ark, and any imagined events concerning it, are tribal myths, not suitable for use as scientific evidence.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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We know what the evidence is. I would suggest that creationists do not know what the evidence is because their beliefs prohibit them from seeing or accepting most of it.
Fossils exist. Duh!
We can interpret that evidence.
Not all interpretations are of equal value. Scientific theories must accommodate all the relevant facts and be contradicted by no relevant facts. Creationist "theories" must accommodate scripture and belief, and if there is a conflict with facts or evidence then those must be considered wrong and ignored. Regarding "interpretation," the scientific approach is valid, while the creationist approach is invalid. The creationist's who suggest that all interpretations are of equal validity are lying to you.
The interpretation does not suggest evolution. Creationists' interpretations do not suggest evolution, as they are hobbled by the requirement to conform to scripture and belief which are against evolution. Scientific interpretations, on the other hand, follow the data and evidence, and do suggest--indeed "prove"--evolution. Again, not all interpretations are of equal value.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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I still await any evidence for evolution and am still wondering how you can accept such a theory when most major phyla appeared fully formed without any intermediates from the original LUCA. We don't need to deal with phyla. The past 5 million or so years of hominid evolution, with the various species and genera, are enough. We see a lot of transitionals, some of which gave rise to new species and some of which led to dead-ends. And knock off that 250 million year nonsense and all the flood nonsense. Neither has a place in scientific discourse. Try a theology class for that--and expect a lot of disagreement as there are something like 40,000 christian denominations and sects alone! The reason there are so many is when there is a disagreement they don't use evidence to determine which is correct--they just split. Rinse and repeat.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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If for example various apes over time show slight changes in cranium capacity, upright stance, reduced tree dwelling features, arm/leg ratios, pelvis ratio, reduced feet/toe use etc etc in a logical sequence this would be convincing. We have that. I'm not going to spoon-feed it to you was you wouldn't accept it if I did.
If any one feature shows a huge backward jump, then it has to be eliminated from the evolutionary sequence as merely a completely separate species. So? It may have to be eliminated as a human ancestor but that does not show it is not a transitional between an earlier and a later species. We have those too.
For example if one claimed ape/human intermediate fossil has all the features that appear to indicate a transition from an earlier ape, yet its proportionate pelvis size is significantly larger than its ancestor, it has to be eliminated from the transitionary sequence to humans. It is an irrelevant species unrelated to the others.
Not so. It may be irrelevant to the human line, but it may still be a transitional and it may still show evolution in action. You somehow don't seem to realize that the theory of evolution applies across the board, to species that led to modern humans and to all the other critters out there, extinct and extant. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Sure it can shrink too. The point is that any large jumps in the opposite direction of the required transition eliminate that organism from the so-called sequence. What "sequence?" There is no "sequence" in the manner which you propose because there is no single goal to which evolution aspires. Each species changes gradually in the way it needs to in order to survive, and many species in fact don't survive--either they changed the wrong way or didn't change in time. Whatever. Over billions of years most species have not survived, but even many of thos have left descendant species. Your point is useless in trying to disprove evolution.
It then becomes illogical guess work rather than evidence. So says a creationist, who relies on ancient tribal myth instead of facts and evidence.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I am thinking of closing down this discussion in this thread, not because of your complete disrespect for my religion and for God, but because I keep repeating myself regarding evidence for creationism. Might I suggest that the disrespect comes from your practice of introducing faith and belief into a scientific thread as if either were evidence?
My point on this thread has been made.
And refuted.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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In theory it can produce moves up and down. But if you no longer have a transitionary sequence of physiology then what do you have left? Nothing. So a large jump in the wrong direction of a particular feature logically eliminates that particular so-called intermediate as evidence for evolution. Evolution is largely a reaction to changing environmental conditions, with a lot of founders effect, accidents, and pure good or bad luck thrown into the mix. Each species will react as circumstances apply, some will thrive for a while and others will go extinct. All of this is in keeping with the theory of evolution. You simply can't expect to take some species that evolve away from a successful line (as judged millions of years later) as evidence that evolution didn't occur. It is rather the opposite.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Creationism predicts that all kinds were created at one moment in the past. Therefore all current organisms will be found through all layers in approximately the same form as modern organisms. The evidence does not support that view. We have transitionals for a large number of species, including modern humans.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Yet the only evidence presented for human transitions is a pic of some skulls, unlabelled may I add. Unless I have missed a post which actually tries to present some evidence. Maybe I missed a post? You've missed a lot. But, here is a quick partial summary. Try the link for a lot more: http://www.vce.bioninja.com.au/...lution/origins-of-man.html Early - Late Hominins Early hominins first appear in the fossil record approximately 4 million years agoCollectively, they were very ape-like in structure - with a prognathic profile and longer arms, they were likely facultative bipeds (arms used for support) They had large jaws, broad molars and thicker enamel, indicating a diet that was heavily dependent on nuts, grains and hard fruits They had a relatively small cranial capacity (roughly 300 - 450 cm3), indicating smaller brains Ardipithecus ramidus (~4.4 m.y.a) is one of the oldest fossils and was very ape-like in appearance, with wider zygomatic arches and a sagittal crest Australopithecus afarensis (~4.0 m.y.a) and A. africanus (~2.5 m.y.a) had non-opposable big toes and were likely the first bipeds (facultative) Early Homo Early Homo species first appear in the fossil record approximately 2 million years agoCompared to Australopithecines, they had a marked increase in brain size (cranial capacity ~ 700 - 1,000 cm3) and reduced sexual dimorphism They had a reduction in the size of their teeth, indicating a change in diet and further skeletal changes to support a more erect posture H. habilis (~2.0 m.y.a) are thought to be among the first to use stone (Oldowan) tools, with shortened digits suggesting the use of precision grip H. erectus (~1.6 m.y.a) was the first to widely distributed thoughout the Old World, may have used fire and possessed rudimentary language Late Homo Late Homo species first appear in the fossil record under 1 million years ago (~800,000 y.a)These species have a significantly increased cranial capacity (~1,300 - 1,500 cm3) and demonstrate advanced cultural and technological practises H. heidelbergensis (~600,000 y.a) were among the first to bury their dead and are thought to be a direct ancestor of H. sapiens H. neanderthalensis (~200,000 y.a) used Mousterian (flint-flake) tools and likely co-existed at the same time as H. sapiens H. floresiensis (~80,000 y.a) has been nicknamed 'hobbit' for its small size; debate exists as to whether it is a separate species or a primitve human with major genetic deformities At some point between 200,000 and 100,000 years ago, a population of early humans crossed the morphological threshold to become modern humans: Homo sapiens sapiens You wanted a continuous sequence, here you have it.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Ringo writes: There was a time when creationists claimed that evolution never happened, that in fact it couldn't happen. It's funny that they now argue "against" evolution by claiming it happened really, really fast. As I've noted elsewhere: Creationist John Woodmorappe, in his The Non-Transitions in ‘Human Evolution’on Evolutionists’ Terms claims that the change from modern man, i.e., Adam and Eve, to Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis, and Homo neanderthalensis took place after the Babel incident, which is usually placed after the global flood and in the range of 4,000 to 5,300 years ago. The implications of this are huge: Woodmorappe’s perceived change from modern man to Homo ergaster would require a rate of evolution on the order of several hundred times as rapid as scientists posit for the change from Homo ergaster to modern man! This is in spite of the fact that most creationists deny evolution occurs on this scale at all; now a creationist has not only proposed such a change, but sees it operating several hundreds of times faster and in reverse!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Coyote writes:
Creationist John Woodmorappe...Pressie writes: You mean "science teacher" Jan Peczkis... Right. I'm sure he's keeping his religious beliefs out of the classroom, too.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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