Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The best scientific method (Bayesian form of H-D)
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 273 (79770)
01-21-2004 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by sidelined
01-20-2004 10:42 PM


Careful what you wished for... prophecies for these guys are not predictions of what would happen but guidelines of what should happen. You might find yourself in a nuke shelter early 2007 because they want the prophecies to happen so bad they fulfil it themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2004 10:42 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Mammuthus, posted 01-21-2004 11:30 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 126 by Mammuthus, posted 01-21-2004 11:30 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 122 of 273 (79780)
01-21-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by sidelined
01-20-2004 10:42 PM


Re: Online?
We will have to define "nuclear holocaust" to establish the bet. Some would say it means an unleashing of the US's and Russia's weaponds, others might say a tactical nuke in manhatten counts and others would say that Chernobyl was one, and if it happens in 2006 the death of 2 plant workers due to radiation exposure will be counted by some.
I don't suppose the prophesy is this precise is it? But can we agree on a cut off?

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by sidelined, posted 01-20-2004 10:42 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2004 1:47 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 123 of 273 (79783)
01-21-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by mark24
01-21-2004 10:04 AM


Re: Kuhn's dilemma
quote:
OK, the women were poor, probably sluts, and good riddance. I suppose you think something similar about the people you are responsible for, that you refuse to pray the demons away from. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
..or perhaps Brad McFall?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by mark24, posted 01-21-2004 10:04 AM mark24 has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 273 (79784)
01-21-2004 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
01-21-2004 10:12 AM


Re: Kuhn's dilemma
Percy,
You ask,
briefly summarize the actual, scientific, falsifiable, replicable evidence for demons.
1. Most species co-exist in their ecosystems with predatory or parasitic, or symbiotic living beings that they cannot sense, that have senses and powers and intelligence they do not have. This is evidence that such biologic relationships are plausible, by the law of succession.
2. A possible symbiotic being in the human ecosystem is a Person named Jehovah, who has hypothehically written a message to us, describing the ontology of the world that we cannot see, and telling us how to deal with that world. This document contains patterns and information that we can detect statistically, that are beyond human capabilities, confirming the validity of its being what it says it is. Ivan Panin's Gematria, Del Washburn's Theomatics, and Doron Witztum's Bible Codes are three independent discoveries of such patterns. Panin found that the numbers representing the letters in the original languages added up to unlikely multiples of numbers that are treated in the text as important. Washburn found similar patterns, in ways that could be examined statistically using tests discovered since Panin's day. Witztum found ELS's with associated meaning, with minimum skips improbably close to one another.
3. The Bible says that demons are a part of the human ecosystem. This can be demonstrated, according to the Bible, by a simple test, called titheing, that causes Jehovah to "rebuke the devourer" from the life of the tither.
4. The Bible also says that certain prayers will cause good angels to drive away bad angels, or demons. Then, the problems caused by these demons will cease.
5. People who have done scientific experiments with prayer have confirmed the promised results. These prayer studies are weakened by the fact that they did not explicitly state that they included prayers for deliverance, only that they prayed to God, for the desired result. But the God they prayed to has clearly stated that often the desired result is hindered by the presence of demons. Thus, they confirm. There are also innumerable anecdotes confirming the titheing experiment. Both can be replicated by anyone at any time. But, the Bible notes that it is possible to "pray amiss." As in any science experiment, you have to follow protocols. I have found this to be somewhat true with the titheing experiment.
6. People doing near-death studies, where the human soul is enlightened, have often reported seeing demons (and Hell). Anyone wishing to replicate this study can do so by a hypothermic technique, where their bodies life-processes are stopped. Of course, there must be demons present to be seen, and since the demons often are going to great lengths to not be seen, an effort must be made to keep them handy. For this, a symbiotic spiritual guide should be used.
Now, all of this is evidence for demons, in that it is evidence, and was predicted by a hypothesis that includes the existence of demons. That is, in the H-D methodology, all of this evidence raises somewhat the plausibility that demons exist. Have demons been proved to exist? Of course not. If that's what one means by evidence, one is not a scientist. One is a dogmatist. But the plausibility is high enough, and increasing, that the ontological description of demons that we have in the bible is accurate.
Of course, non-scientists are free to wait until their soul leaves their body, and the demons come to claim their own, to get convincing "evidence" for their existence. The demons will wisely stay out of sight until then, and only a diligent, scientific effort to reveal them will convince.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 01-21-2004 10:12 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Abshalom, posted 01-21-2004 12:52 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied
 Message 137 by Percy, posted 01-21-2004 8:34 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 125 of 273 (79794)
01-21-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Andya Primanda
01-21-2004 10:25 AM


edited out duplicate post
[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 01-21-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Andya Primanda, posted 01-21-2004 10:25 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 126 of 273 (79795)
01-21-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Andya Primanda
01-21-2004 10:25 AM


yes, but if you keep these insane people distracted by oh..say debates on EvC, they won't have the time or energy to devote to trying to kill everyone on the planet.
cheers,
M

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Andya Primanda, posted 01-21-2004 10:25 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Silent H, posted 01-21-2004 12:00 PM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 128 by MrHambre, posted 01-21-2004 12:07 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 127 of 273 (79801)
01-21-2004 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Mammuthus
01-21-2004 11:30 AM


quote:
but if you keep these insane people distracted by oh..say debates on EvC, they won't have the time or energy to devote to trying to kill everyone on the planet.
I'm not so sure about that. Half the time I read their posts I fear my gut will split from laughing, the other half (when I try to communicate) I feel like I'm having an aneurism.
They'll get us one way or the other.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)< !--UE-->
[This message has been edited by holmes, 01-21-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Mammuthus, posted 01-21-2004 11:30 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 128 of 273 (79804)
01-21-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Mammuthus
01-21-2004 11:30 AM


H-D This
Stephen yen Bushwah writes:
Have demons been proved to exist? Of course not. If that's what one means by evidence, one is not a scientist. One is a dogmatist.
Mammuthus, you're not being very scientific about Steve-O here. You have to frame an H-D hypothesis like "Stephen Fretwell is a complete raving lunatic," since raving lunacy has low plausibilty. Or is that probability? Oh well.
Then, we have to pray on the hypothesis: Lord, if Stephen Fretwell is a complete raving lunatic, please drop Tera Patrick in my lap right now or in the next ten seconds. The failure of said porn star to appear tells us nothing. Perhaps she fell into someone's lap(which has high probability), or some other female will fall into my lap soon (which has low plausibility). I will accept my four-year-old daughter's sitting on my lap as a verification of the criteria. Our hypothesis has passed the initial test, or test pattern. This does not prove our hypothesis to be true, or valid, or vanilla, but it increases the plausibility of the H-D hypothesis. Stephen Fretwell can be said to be a lunatic of at least some kind (jabbering? frothing?), unless the Bible has failed as our materials and methods manual. The probability of that is low. I mean the possibility, sorry.
It could be, however, that Stephen Fretwell is a raving lunatic, but not a complete raving lunatic. His typing alone is enough to lead us to the conclusion that he is functional in some ways, whereas Brad either uses the shift key too much or dictates his posts to someone who does. When will the completion of Stephen Fretwell's raving lunacy be achieved? Since his mind is open to literally any preposterous notion whatsoever (except evolutionary theory, which evidently depends on not-crackpot-enough evidence), we may predict with low plaus-, probab- or poss-ibilty that it will be very, very soon. We'll ask Jehovah again after lunch.

The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Mammuthus, posted 01-21-2004 11:30 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Mammuthus, posted 01-22-2004 3:52 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 273 (79819)
01-21-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-21-2004 11:07 AM


Re: Kuhn's Enema
RaSBey:
I think you've hit on something solid here (Message 124): "Most species co-exist in their ecosystems with predatory or parasitic, or symbiotic living beings that they cannot sense ..."
Yet, I disagree that the predatory or parasitic beings cannot be sensed by the host. Just this morning, I noticed a distinctly sulfurous odor immediately prior to a release of what I can only describe as a veritable malestrom of fire and brimstone.
As you might say: "This is evidence that such biologic relationships are plausible ..."
You go on to advise us, "The Bible says that demons are a part of the human ecosystem."
Indeed they are, RaSBey, as was clearly demonstrated to me this morning. After the tempest of fire and brimstone, the intensely sulfurous odor only became more overwhelming and nearly unbearable!
You further advise, "The Bible also says that certain prayers will cause good angels to drive away bad angels, or demons. Then, the problems caused by these demons will cease."
While your advice may be well-founded and work its magic for you and other folks, I found a quick flush produced equally good results while expending a lot less mental effort.
Nonetheless, thank you, RaSBey, for your well-intended advice and your continued compassionate crusade against this vast, unrighteous-winged conspiracy.
A'shalom A'shoofly
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-21-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-21-2004 11:07 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-21-2004 2:08 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 273 (79838)
01-21-2004 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Abshalom
01-21-2004 12:52 PM


Re: Kuhn's Enema
Abshalom,
You note,
Yet, I disagree that the predatory or parasitic beings cannot be sensed by the host
Good correction. Insert "usually" before sensed. Earthworms do just fine sensing robins, when the robin is eating the earthworm. And those who find demons incredible will all probably get their chance to "taste and see that devil is bad."
Farting during deliverance is, actually, quite commen, according to Derek Prince, and my own experience. Don't know why that is.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Abshalom, posted 01-21-2004 12:52 PM Abshalom has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NosyNed, posted 01-21-2004 2:12 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied
 Message 132 by Silent H, posted 01-21-2004 2:41 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 131 of 273 (79840)
01-21-2004 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-21-2004 2:08 PM


Re: Kuhn's Enema
It seems that the presence of some parasites shows up to prospective mates ("The Red Queen" by Ridley) and this is an explanation for some sexual displays. The carrier of them has to be in good shape or the display shows the presence of parasites up.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-21-2004 2:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 132 of 273 (79843)
01-21-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-21-2004 2:08 PM


quote:
Farting during deliverance is, actually, quite commen,
Once again, I wonder at how one knows that this "God" is not actually a malign entity.
Anti-sexual openess, anti-intellectual, pro fart, pro killing.
Or am I mistaken and you were refering to Deliverance (the movie)? I have not had any problem with farting while watching it, but one scene in particular made my ass hurt.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-21-2004 2:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-21-2004 3:35 PM Silent H has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 273 (79845)
01-21-2004 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-20-2004 3:08 PM


Handwashing, Hyssop, and Bird Blood
Some phrases taken (out of the context) from Message 107:
"... it was suspected and hypothesized that, if germs were the problem, hand-washing would cure it."
"... hand washing is a religious duty to orthodox Jews, and a sound health practise to scientists studying microbes and disease."
First of all, hand washing in and of itself will not cure the problem by eradicating the germs carried by contaminated hands into a surgery. Where is the proof that water alone can kill staphylococci?
Other factors, such as the purity of the water used for handwashing, and the use of antibacterial soap, alcohol, ammonia, chlorine, etc., have much more to do with it than the simple act of dousing the hands with water.
Secondly, the simple fact that traditional and largely ceremonial practices prescribed for Jews and Muslems before eating, and in association with other bodily functions, may indicate a desire for hygiene, do not necessarily guarantee a high level of hygienic effectiveness attributed to the practices.
For example, I would think wiping defecation from one's anus using only a rock or a lump of dirt and then washing one's hands with well water or sand might be more likely to result in the contamination of both hands, whether from the rock, the dirt, the water, or a combination. The example is given to demonstrate that even well-intended attempts at hygiene are certainly fallible.
Another example: What fungicidal properties are inherent to water and dove blood sprinkled onto mildewed household surfaces using a hyssop broom head tied to a cedar handle using a red ribbon?
But really, both Leviticus 14 and Numbers 19 indicate that it is not specifically the washing with water or the content of the wash water that effects the "cleanliness," but rather the waiting for seven days or some other specific time that effects the cleanliness, and the sprinkling with water is only ceremonial.
In other words, if you actually live for seven days past the initial contamination from touching a corpse or some other dreaded shagetz, you have earned the blessed right to be sprinkled with the magic water that institutes ceremonial cleanliness.
It seems to me that the discussion back around Message 107, and in particular with regard to Stephen's suppositions associated with the "history of handwashing" exhihit a wealth of speculation and a shortage of scientific documentation. Did I miss a reference or something?
Peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-20-2004 3:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-21-2004 3:32 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 273 (79850)
01-21-2004 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Abshalom
01-21-2004 2:54 PM


Re: Handwashing, Hyssop, and Bird Blood
Abshalom,
I was only giving one of the reasons Semmelweis' study was discounted by the critics.
We will, of course, someday figure out how to get the truth out of these religious practises. Note the over-riding commandment, "hearken to my voice, to keep and do all these things that are written." Scientific studies on blessing and cursing bacteria show effectiveness, and a good Jew, hearkening to God's voice as he sets out to wash his hands, might well be told to curse the bad bacteria. The water might improve the effectiveness of the curse. Sort of a reverse baptism.
Speculation is like sex. Fun, and in its place, quite productive.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Abshalom, posted 01-21-2004 2:54 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 273 (79851)
01-21-2004 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Silent H
01-21-2004 2:41 PM


Holmes,
The God, Jehovah, is extraordinarily malign, so He has written, to those who reject His love. Like my wife. Now, there's a story!
But I like Abshalom's point, which I take to be, God gives us farts to show us demons leaving, because we cannot sense the demons, and don't know how offensive they are. Otherwise, we let them back in.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Silent H, posted 01-21-2004 2:41 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Silent H, posted 01-21-2004 4:31 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied
 Message 143 by Mammuthus, posted 01-22-2004 9:00 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied
 Message 145 by Abshalom, posted 01-22-2004 6:21 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024