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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Coyote
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 226 of 3768 (797919)
01-29-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Tangle
01-29-2017 11:57 AM


After a couple of hundred years, it looks like you got yourself a monarch again.

We've always had them!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 227 of 3768 (797924)
01-29-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by herebedragons
01-29-2017 11:38 AM


Re: The Week That Was
herebedragons writes:

How about when he tweeted that if Chicago didn't fix their crime problem he wold send in the Feds.

That statement deeply disturbed me. Later someone on his staff said he meant he would send federal help, but that is certainly not the tone of his tweet. His statement was threatening and suggestive of a police state solution. *shivers*


Remember Eliot Ness?

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4817
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 228 of 3768 (797925)
01-29-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by RAZD
01-29-2017 12:01 PM


We revolted before we can be revolting again ...

quote:
Perhaps, maybe some good will come from it. A little revolution, now and then, is a healthy thing, don't you think?


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 Message 225 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2017 12:01 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32166
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 229 of 3768 (797928)
01-29-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
01-29-2017 9:12 AM


Re: The Week That Was
One thing you forgot was excluding the Military from the National Security Council.

Smart.

Very smart.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Percy, posted 01-29-2017 9:12 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1103
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 230 of 3768 (797937)
01-29-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
01-29-2017 9:12 AM


Re: The Week That Was
Hello Percy, I didn't get a chance to respond to your last reply to me (on Christmas day) in the other thread because of a death in the family, and it faded from memory in the weeks that followed, but this message of yours awakens an important point I was trying to make. I'll respond to each of these points of yours, then clarify what that point was, with a brief quote from that thread.

Issued a confusing executive order that Obamacare should be enforced as little as possible within the realms of legal discretion. Health insurance companies are unable to predict what the result might be.

Barack Obama's forcing of his extreme far-left agenda on an unwilling country by executive orders, left wing judges, and obsequious bureaucrats over a period of 8 years leaves his properly elected successor little choice but to do some unpredictable things to start down the long road to right that far left agenda, according to the will of those who elected him.

Revived pipeline projects shutdown by Obama.

In yet another earlier exchange with you, I put a link up for you that showed that U.S. small business closures now outnumber small business openings for the first time in decades. You acknowledged it, but didn't comment on it. Why do liberals call themselves progressives if they want to shut down progress? The national debt went up almost $1 trillion a year under the Obama administration. Do you think that can keep happening indefinitely? Do you think it can be addressed if actual progress is constantly thwarted by the Democrat party?

Ordered that building the wall along the Mexican border begin, claiming it would be paid by a tariff on goods from Mexico. Of course, Americans would then end up paying for the wall in the form of higher prices on tariffed goods.

You're assuming that Mexico automatically has the upper hand in future negotiations with the U.S. The U.S. doesn't need Mexico any more than Mexico needs the U.S. We can get the goods that Mexico supplies us with from other countries if necessary.

Caused a brouhaha with the Mexican president over who will pay for the wall, causing him to cancel a trip here.

It was Trump who actually suggested he cancel the trip for now. Having a president with a Theodore Roosevelt type backbone is something that will take a lot of getting used to, I know.

Ordered that the US withdraw from the TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership).

Ordered a renegotiation of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement).

He was elected on his promises to be able to make deals that are in the best interests of the U.S. These things are part of that plan. It's probably a pretty complex, ongoing plan. He didn't get to be a billionaire by not understanding deal making and financing.

Ordered an immediate immigration ban, causing chaos at airports and stranding legitimate immigrants overseas.

This is the knee-jerk reaction, and it's just about all the information you're going to get from the NY Times. This goes back to my point from the other thread, about how multiple sources of information can often lead to a much better overall view of the situation. From the other thread;

Percy writes:

marc9000 writes:

This message, combined with your previous messages 758 and 763, indicate to me that you're getting your news only from a few biased sources,...

Unless Trump didn't say, "The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability," or he didn't pressure Obama over a U.N. resolution on Israeli West Bank settlements, the news reported in Message 758 was perfectly accurate, and the link in Message 763 was to an editorial, not a news article.

I wasn't addressing how accurate they were, I was saying that those things should be balanced by other equally true things, that don't necessarily favor one political view.

Here's a quote from 1799 by one of the first justices of the supreme court, appointed by George Washington, that you're not going to see in the NY Times;

quote:
Any alien coming to this country must or ought to know, that this being an independent nation, it has all the rights concerning the removal of aliens which belong by the law of nations to any other; that while he remains in the country in the character of an alien, he can claim no other privilege than such as an alien is entitled to, and consequently, whatever risque he may incur in that capacity is incurred voluntarily, with the hope that in due time by his unexceptionable conduct, he may become a citizen of the United States.” ~Justice James Iredell, 1799

This is at the beginning of a link that shows exactly why and what Trump did, and why it's not nearly the big deal that the mainstream media and gangs of uninformed protestors think it is.

https://www.conservativereview.com/...ive-order-fact-fiction

Now this is from ~conservative review~, something most liberals will undoubtedly hand wave away without looking at it, but I'd hope a few of you will read this over and see if there's anything there that's not a simple fact. Here's another from that link;

quote:
There is no affirmative right, constitutional or otherwise, to visit or settle in the United States. Period.

Just about everyone in the U.S. has some negative things throughout their lives that can be brought up, that can put them in a bad light. It's obvious that most of the mainstream media including the NY Times is focused on doing only that to Trump, not only excluding ANYTHING good about him, but at least somewhat jeopardizing the overall good of the U.S. in the process. The last election proves that the U.S. public is starting to get its information from places other than the mainstream media. They're the best informed, you should consider joining them.

Claimed that his inauguration crowd was the largest in history, despite photo evidence to the contrary, then doubled down on the claim again and again, despite that no one cares but him.

I must say I agree with you there, I don't know why he's concerned about that. D.C. is mostly populated with government-dependent Democrat voters, why he thinks a crowd in that area would favor him is beyond me.

Claimed he lost the popular vote because of millions of fraudulent votes, despite the total lack of evidence, then made the claim again and again, despite that no one cares but him.

Oh there are a lot of people that care about that. California is loaded with illegal Mexicans, that was the only state where Trump heavily lost the popular vote. I've heard that California doesn't require documents when registering people to vote. Some reporters at the press conference with Sean Spicer, when hammering on him to provide evidence of voter fraud, now seem to wish they hadn't asked, now that Spicer said there very well might be a voter-fraud investigation.

Even just what I remember makes this the worst first week in presidential history.

Some of us think it's the best, cleaning up the messes made by not only Obama, but Bush and Clinton, isn't going to be pretty or quick and painless. But we need to get started. And Trump is, it's what he was elected to do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Percy, posted 01-29-2017 9:12 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32166
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(4)
Message 231 of 3768 (797947)
01-29-2017 7:06 PM


the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
I haven't seen anything like the response of the women's march world wide or today's mass outpouring of citizenry all across the US at least since Lyndon Johnson was President. Even then I do not remember the amazing reality of such broad demographics, from all education levels, all ages, all nationalities, all ethnic groups in protest of President Trump.

It really helps show that at the base Americans are pretty good folk and that Trump is the Deplorable one.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1103
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 232 of 3768 (797949)
01-29-2017 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
01-29-2017 7:06 PM


Re: the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
I haven't seen anything like the response of the women's march world wide or today's mass outpouring of citizenry all across the US at least since Lyndon Johnson was President. Even then I do not remember the amazing reality of such broad demographics, from all education levels, all ages, all nationalities, all ethnic groups in protest of President Trump.
It really helps show that at the base Americans are pretty good folk and that Trump is the Deplorable one.

Today's Democrat party is nothing like it was in the late 60's, and today's sensationalizing mainstream news media is nothing like it was in the late 60's.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-29-2017 7:54 PM marc9000 has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(3)
Message 233 of 3768 (797952)
01-29-2017 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by marc9000
01-29-2017 7:38 PM


Re: the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
Today's Democrat party is nothing like it was in the late 60's, and today's sensationalizing mainstream news media is nothing like it was in the late 60's.

And curiously the Republican Party is nothing like it was in the 60's either. In fact, WOW, I'm nothing like I was back in the 60's.

How about that, everything changes over time.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by marc9000, posted 01-29-2017 7:38 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32166
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 234 of 3768 (797955)
01-29-2017 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Tanypteryx
01-29-2017 7:54 PM


Re: the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
How about that, everything changes over time.

Yet still the people are speaking just as they did in the 50s and 60s and 70s... While il Donald cannot even fill up his designated support station many many thousands more can show up without orchestration, without compensation, all over the world and in cities all across the US to decry the mockery that is the Trump agenda; the perversion of all things good the US stood for that has characterized the Trump Presidency so far.

At least Leni Riefenstahl seemed capable of filling the amphitheater, filling in any gaps in the crowds. It seems il Donald has no one as competent.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-29-2017 7:54 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 235 of 3768 (797956)
01-29-2017 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by jar
01-29-2017 9:21 PM


Re: the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
While il Donald cannot even fill up his designated support station many many thousands more can show up without orchestration, without compensation, all over the world and in cities all across the US to decry the mockery that is the Trump agenda; the perversion of all things good the US stood for that has characterized the Trump Presidency so far.

Yes! Like my wife said while we were marching, "It's invigorating!" It made us feel so good to be part of it. Never before has there been such an outpouring of emotional energy, in response to a President's swearing in. Millions of Americans and millions more people around the globe all swearing to resist the Trump agenda and his degrading example of humanity.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 3768 (797975)
01-30-2017 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by marc9000
01-29-2017 4:15 PM


Re: The Week That Was
Barack Obama's forcing of his extreme far-left agenda on an unwilling country by executive orders, left wing judges, and obsequious bureaucrats over a period of 8 years leaves his properly elected successor little choice but to do some unpredictable things to start down the long road to right that far left agenda, according to the will of those who elected him.

Actually, not. Trump is under little to no time pressure to make changes to Obamacare before Congress acts. In fact, the polls suggest that about half of the folks don't want repeal and about 74 percent of folks really want at least some kind of replace and repeal rather than appeal. The split among republicans alone is somewhere around the high 40s.

So, there is no need to blame this on Obama. Beyond that, there is no excuse whatsoever for doing confusing stuff just because you have to do something.

Let's also recall that the Republicans have already made Avogadro's number of appeal attempts. Is it really the case that after 7 or so years, nobody has a viable replacement for a program that they all hated and allegedly attempt to repeal previously. What would they have done if those previous attempts had worked?

It was Trump who actually suggested he cancel the trip for now. Having a president with a Theodore Roosevelt type backbone is something that will take a lot of getting used to, I know.

I don't really give Trump a lot of heat for this one. He said that there was no point in coming if Mexico was not paying for the wall, and almost certainly that advice makes sense. While I don't agree with Trump's policy, in this case, I am forced to chalk that up to a difference of opinion rather than ineptitude as displayed in the previous example.

Percy writes:

Ordered an immediate immigration ban, causing chaos at airports and stranding legitimate immigrants overseas.

This is the knee-jerk reaction, and it's just about all the information you're going to get from the NY Times.

You are claiming that White Houses failure to provide guidance on a ban that Trump could have imposed at any date did not result in a clusterF%$$# that the courts had to unwind over the weekend? What was the rush? [1]

ABE:

As an example of what kind of operation this executive order was, the White House is now saying that green card holders are exempt from the order. Of course, that was exactly what the Department of Homeland Security had initially assumed only to be informed by the White House that green card holders from the seven named countries could not enter the country.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by marc9000, posted 01-29-2017 4:15 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 237 of 3768 (797976)
01-30-2017 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by NoNukes
01-30-2017 2:54 AM


Re: The Week That Was
Telling the President of a neighbouring country that a planned visit is off unless he's willing to pay for an expensive boondoggle is impolite, to say the least.

So, even if it is true that the visit would have been pointless, it certainly could have been cancelled in a more sensible and less insulting way. And I think that it certainly is reasonable to criticise Trump for it, as well as the whole idea that Mexico should have to pay for the wall.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by NoNukes, posted 01-30-2017 2:54 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 238 of 3768 (797978)
01-30-2017 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by PaulK
01-30-2017 3:12 AM


Re: The Week That Was
So, even if it is true that the visit would have been pointless, it certainly could have been cancelled in a more sensible and less insulting way. And I think that it certainly is reasonable to criticise Trump for it, as well as the whole idea that Mexico should have to pay for the wall.

Yes. It seems my lowered expectations are already showing. I have accepted the idea that Trump is going to do some pretty "f'ed" up stuff, and I am aiming my complaints at how bad a job he does at implementing. I actually gave Trump points for saving President Nieto some travel dollars.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2017 3:12 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 239 of 3768 (798015)
01-30-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Tanypteryx
01-29-2017 10:52 PM


Re: the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
Are you now,
Or have you ever been
Radicalized?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-29-2017 10:52 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-30-2017 5:11 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(1)
Message 240 of 3768 (798080)
01-30-2017 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by RAZD
01-30-2017 10:46 AM


Re: the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
Are you now,
Or have you ever been
Radicalized?

I don't think of myself as radicalized now, but was in a Vets Against the War group in about 1970, that a lot of people considered radical.

I guess it has always been considered radical to protest when you think the government is doing something you think is wrong.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by RAZD, posted 01-30-2017 10:46 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
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