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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1761 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 156 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: May God forgive you. Allah does forgive you.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 1174 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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May God forgive you. Forgive me... for what? Not hating Islam? For not living in fear? For believing every human being deserves to be treated with love and dignity even if they belong to an "evil" religion? For not holding Nationalism as a higher priority than human beings? For thinking we can provide security and safety for our country, but do it in a sane and honorable way? For being a moderate Republican and not a right-wing conservative? What exactly does God need to forgive me for, Faith? HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 1174 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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You think Obama didn't act like an autocrat? What world are you living in? What does that have to do with anything I said? I am no fan of Obama, although I had a lot of respect for the way he left office and turned over the reigns of power. But as someone pointed out already, when Obama "acted like an autocrat", he was the evil, godless, Muslim loving heathen; but when Trump does it, he is God's own hand ushering Jesus back into the White House. I am not a partisan politizar. I could care less about what party one is affiliated with and simple do my best to call a spade a spade. So don't think that because I think Trump is dangerous means I am defending Obama or any other political figure. It is simply what I believe to be the truth about Trump, not my political affiliation. May God forgive me for not approving of his chosen savior :sarcasm: (since Trump is not God's Anointed One) HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1722 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Unfortunately, it will probably be that those who oppose him will be Democrats and "liberals" and so opposition will appear to be strictly partisan. However, I sure hope that Republicans will recognize his recklessness and bullying and oppose him as well. But it appears he is loading his administration up with 'Yes' men who think like he does. Yes, CEOs are used to behaving as dictators\emperors\kings because that is the model they use to run the companies. Doesn't have to be that way.
quote: ... I sure hope that Republicans will recognize his recklessness and bullying and oppose him as well. ... TrumpleThinSkin immediately tried to bully and denigrate them. He'd rather make enemies than back down, and I expect this trend to continue. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1722 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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And No, I do not treat all Muslims as members of ISIS, it is ISLAM, not MUSLIMS, ... Islam is the religion of Muslims, you can't be Muslim without Islam. What you really mean is radicalized Muslim Fundamentalist Terrorists, eg ISIS, Al-Queda, etc.
... Most Muslims don't live their religion to the point that the radicals do. ... Correct, just as most Christians don't live their religion to the point that the radicals (the radicalized fundamentalist Christian terrorists) do.
... But the problem is that the religion itself demands violence from them if they ever do become more devoted to it. ... Just as the Christian religion demands violence from people that "become more devoted to it." Can you tell me what perceived crimes Islam demands stoning for that are not also mentioned in the bible?
My guess is that this whole list is a pack of lies designed to imply that if such incidents occurred at all they were by Trump supporters, WHEN IN FACT ALL THE KNOWN DOCUMENTED INCIDENTS HAVE BEEN BY ANTI-TRUMP SUPPORTERS AGAINST TRUMP SUPPORTERS. ... Of course you think it is lies. That is how you defend your opinions from reality. Now I don't deny that some people have reacted to Trump supporters with violence, but that does not negate the fact that racist attacks and hate crime attacks are up. This increase in violence on both sides is due to the divisiveness of the Trump programs. If he truly wants to make America Great Again, then he should be working to unify people with love, not hate. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1722 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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They should have confirmed Sessions by now ... Sessions is a racist bigot that was deemed to be unfit to be a federal judge because of his views. That makes him de Facto unfit to be Attorney General. I would not be surprised to see several republicans vote against him due to this fear\hate driven arbitrary and ultimately useless ban and the furor that has resulted from it.
... In fact isn't that likely the reason they are dragging their feet on confirming his appointees, ... No, it is likely due to the fact that several of them are not fit for the positions. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I would say that it is certainly morally dubious and almost certainly legally dubious to say that the Government can do whatever it likes to non-citizens. It would be a major flaw in the legal system if it were true. Nobody is saying "do whatever it likes", but I don't think we have the sovereignty to grant our Constitutional rights to people in other countries. That doesn't necessitate what we do decide to do in treating people here, but the question was one of legal obligation. Apparently a Green Card does allow you full Constitutional rights; I wonder if instead of using the word "aliens" twice, if the Executive Order simply used "refugees", if that would change the perceived Constitutionality of the Order. That's really the only legal problem I see with it, is that by using the term aliens it is including Green Card holders who have rights against what it orders.
Given that there was already enhanced scrutiny for people coming from the affected countries and in the absence of any threat that necessitated the immediate imposition of the ban it is hard to say that Trump's action is at all justified. I'm beginning to think that it is part of a longer game plan. With the talks of Trump's phone calls to Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi, and their reported support of safe zones for refugees in the Middle East, this could actually turn out to be a better thing for refugees, and the region, in general. Setting up areas "over there" where the refugees can go and be safe and start getting jobs to rebuild their own country will do a lot more for them, and us, than moving them across the globe and putting them on aid. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
Therefore I find it credible that Trump's precipitate action was, in fact, illegal. I'm not buying it. What would be the crime that he committed? Signing a flawed Executive Order? Is that illegal?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1722 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Therefore I find it credible that Trump's precipitate action was, in fact, illegal. I'm not buying it. What would be the crime that he committed? Signing a flawed Executive Order? Is that illegal? And I agree he had the right to issue the executive order. What he signed though, shows vast incompetence in managing how government works and a failure to understand the difference between government and the feudal business model he is used to. That he either doesn't understand the consequences or is just ignoring them (typical Trump) doesn't change the fact that this is poorly thought out, poorly implemented and ridiculous in which countries are included and which are excluded. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nobody is saying "do whatever it likes", but I don't think we have the sovereignty to grant our Constitutional rights to people in other countries. How is sovereignty a problem when discussing what rights with respect to the US that anybody will have once they reach our country? It is not as though giving due process or any other constitutional right here in the US affects what the other country can do to its own citizens. It would not, for example, keep a foreign country from disallowing travel to the US. Your position makes no sense legally. Perhaps sovereignty is not the issue you meant to discuss.
Setting up areas "over there" where the refugees can go and be safe and start getting jobs to rebuild their own country will do a lot more for them, and us, than moving them across the globe and putting them on aid. Assuming such a thing is even possible... Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: First, the court cases involve people arriving in the U.S. and under U.S. jurisdiction. And it is absurd to suggest that the U.S. government lacks sovereignty over its own unilateral decisions. If the Executive Order violates rights granted under the Constitution - and we have already seen that the Constitution does grant some rights - rights that seem relevant - to anybody within U.S. jurisdiction then it is breaking the law. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
And I agree he had the right to issue the executive order. What he signed though, shows vast incompetence in managing how government works and a failure to understand the difference between government and the feudal business model he is used to. It's, like, his first week... let him get some OJT in ![]() That he either doesn't understand the consequences or is just ignoring them (typical Trump) doesn't change the fact that this is poorly thought out, poorly implemented and ridiculous in which countries are included and which are excluded. You don't know how thought out it is, but I agree that it was poorly implemented. And the countries were picked beforehand so that ridicule isn't on Trump. If we can get Safe Zones set up in the Middle East, supported by other countries, and start getting the refugees to work rebuilding their own country, then don't you think that would be better than dispersing them across the globe? Both for them and their region?
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Modulous Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I'm too tired to care what pernicious lies you are heaping on me in this weird post of yours. What a perfectly horrid thing to say. I noted a tension between the idea that Congress has absolute power and the President should have broad powers when Trump is in office and the idea that the President exercising his powers makes him a despotic tyrant when Obama was doing it. You retorted you didn't remember anyone protesting Obama's use of his powers. I replied with examples of that happening, including your own protestations. Your response to this has been to assert/assume I am heaping pernicious lies upon you. But this is a category error. Unless you know my state of mind you cannot know my perception is being dishonestly represented. Mistaken, perhaps, and I am giving you the opportunity to correct me, but it cannot be a lie. Providing you with examples can't be a pernicious lie, they serve to illustrate why I believe there is a tension between your position (and others like you) today vs some months/years ago. Hence, smearing me as being a pernicious liar is perfectly horrid. Since you weren't too tired to call me a liar, I can only assume this was a tactic designed to upset or discredit me rather than answering my query, which leads to be more confident in the apparent hypocrisy on display from the right-wing over this particular issue...with bonus points for the hypocrisy over the issue of unjustly calling people liars.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
And it is absurd to suggest that the U.S. government lacks sovereignty over its own unilateral decisions. I wasn't suggesting that, I was just sayin'.
If the Executive Order violates rights granted under the Constitution - and we have already seen that the Constitution does grant some rights - rights that seem relevant - to anybody within U.S. jurisdiction then it is breaking the law. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. Is signing an Executive Order that ends up being determined to be unconstitutional illegal?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And I agree he had the right to issue the executive order. An order directing a federal agency to commit illegal activity is not legal. Issuing such an order is not, however, a criminal act. What is a punishable act is disobeying a court order to cease and desist. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 1761 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
[qs] Sessions is a racist bigot that was deemed to be unfit to be a federal judge because of his views. [qs]
That's a big fat evil lie.
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