Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

Summations Only

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 271 of 4573 (798620)
02-03-2017 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Percy
02-03-2017 3:02 PM


Re: Trump Going After Dodd-Frank
Now the Republicans in congress are working to roll back Dodd-Frank, the set of financial rules the Obama administration put in place to restore faith in the financial system that collapsed due to the mortgage security scandal.
I got a good belly laugh over this issue today. I listened to Trump telling us why Dodd-Frank was a bad idea. He said that he had friends who could not get loans and that Dodd-Frank was part of the rationale. Of course, the number one person in this country who cannot get US banks to loan him any money is Donald Trump. But that's primarily because you'd have to be irresponsible to lend Trump money after he brags about stiffing his creditors.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Percy, posted 02-03-2017 3:02 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 4573 (798622)
02-03-2017 10:10 PM


Opposites attract
At the heart of this Trump populism lies an inverse reaction. I don't think there's anything more responsible for the election of Trump than the Left itself. Actually, to be clear, I'm not referring to the Old Left but about the Regressive Left that is quite literally bat-shit insane. The Regressive Left is an extremist version of leftist ideals and principles that are quite honestly fascist in their approach. These are the kind of dickheads who will do anything to crush free speech, including the introduction of violence and in general behave childishly. You know, the kind that throw temper tantrums when they don't get their way.
Their most outspoken critics? Luminaries on the Left, ironically enough. People on the Left who aren't completely insane Social Justice Warriors have utterly denounced these fringe lunatics who are fast becoming the popular voice among the Left. Their stance is almost comedic... the same thing happened to the Right during the Bush years where the Right went far right and they became a parody unto themselves. It was an embarrassment to be associated with it and the mocking behavior became enough to dissuade more rationally-thinking conservatives. Enter the libertarian and Alt-Right years... the days of the Moral Majority Right has almost come to an end. They are dinosaurs headed towards extinction.
Well, now it's happened again but in reverse. And if Trump's presidency is as bad as it seems given it's start as a means of gauging its trajectory, the pendulum will swing in the opposite direction yet again in another 4-8 years.
But make no mistake, people like Chancellor Merkel and a legion of suicidal SJW's have gotten Donald Trump elected.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-03-2017 10:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 275 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2017 3:29 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 273 of 4573 (798623)
02-03-2017 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2017 10:10 PM


Re: Opposites attract
I'm pretty sure it was the people who voted for Trump who got Trump elected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2017 10:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 4573 (798624)
02-03-2017 11:43 PM


Trump's pick for Sec't of the Army withdraws from consideration and shows up boss...
quote:
(CNN)President Donald Trump's nominee for secretary of the Army, Vincent Viola, is withdrawing, citing business ties.
"Mr. Viola has informed President Trump that he will be unable to accept his nomination to serve as secretary of the Army as the challenges of separating Mr. Viola from the organizations that he has built over the last thirty-five years have proven insurmountable," a statement from Viola's team said.
Clearly a man of at least some principles. In short, a great foil for the Donald, who was his boss to be, and who is even more thoroughly entangled, and who refuses to even provide financial information that could be vetted.
Edited by NoNukes, : Put wrong branch of service in title. Go Navy!!!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 275 of 4573 (798633)
02-04-2017 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2017 10:10 PM


Re: Opposites attract
You seem to be giving very little credit to the Republican establishment or the far-right.
The Republican establishment surely bears great responsibility for the increasingly partisan nature of U.S. Politics. As does the far right media encouraging hate and lies. This is not something new, it has been going on for years. The Republican Party embraced this extremism and it came back to bite them.
Equally the whole "regressive left" business seems to be at least in part a product of far-right hate groups looking for targets. People who equate "free speech" with the right to viciously harass opposing voices with the intent of silencing them.
When haters come to power, blaming the targets of their hatred seems to be more than a little perverse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2017 10:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 276 of 4573 (798637)
02-04-2017 7:05 AM


Topic Reminder
Just a brief topic reminder: this thread is to be a rational and fact-based discussion of the Trump presidency, not a left vs. right wrangle.
--Percy

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1492
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 277 of 4573 (798645)
02-04-2017 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Percy
01-31-2017 7:09 AM


Re: the spontaneous outpouring of citizenry
I think this one from Marc is on-topic since the Republican corollary is that Trump has a troubling fondness for communist dictator Putin.
There is actually no similarity between any fondness Trump has for Putin versus Sanders admiration for Castro.
Bernie Sanders praised Cuba's Fidel Castro in 1985 TV interview | Daily Mail Online
quote:
Bernie Sanders praised Fidel Castro in 1985 interview: 'He educated their kids, gave their kids health care, totally transformed society'
Sanders admired Castro for the way he treated his people, the way he governed his society. I don't think you'll find anything on the net that indicates Trump admires anything about the way Putin treats his people. In WWII, the U.S. and Russia grudgingly worked together to defeat the Nazi's. It didn't mean they were close allies. Trump sees the same possibilities in the war against ISIS.
The Trump presidency will continue to run in turmoil so long as he continues to indulge his intemperate and impulsive nature.
It depends on your definition of "turmoil". As I mentioned to you before, during my evening meals I like to hold my nose and watch "WORLD NEWS TONIGHT" with David Muir. A few nights ago, it started with; "tonights headlines, Trump uses 2 words - GO NUCLEAR" then he went on to the other big summaries of the day, then sloppily explained how Trump was referring to the Republican majorities power to adjust the rules in a similar Harry Reed did when he was the majority leader, to gain political power for his own party. But any casual Democrat viewer with a short attention span thinks, AAAAHHHHHH, TRUMP WANTS TO START A NUCLELAR WAR!!!!!!!!!!!
This is one of many ways the news media twists and distorts, my first thought was, why does Trump use words like that? He should know what the news media will do with it. But after a little thought, I suspect Trump knew exactly what they would do. He baits them, and laughs when they take the bait. He's the first president who bluntly calls the news media out for who they are, and knows much of the public sees it too. They just make it all the more clear exactly who they are the more unhinged they get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Percy, posted 01-31-2017 7:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2017 10:31 AM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1492
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 278 of 4573 (798648)
02-04-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
02-02-2017 1:30 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
There's a good editorial in today's New York Times (The Peculiar Populism of Donald Trump) that explains how the left lost its working-man's base. As people grow more affluent their concerns evolve from the basics of living to less immediate concerns like the environment and LGBT rights, and the left evolved right along with them, to the point where they no longer seemed to represent the concerns of the working man.
That's right, the basics of living and the concerns of the working man grow more obvious when the left doesn't show understanding of issues like the runaway national debt, or enormous government regulations that have small business closures now outnumbering small business openings for the first time in decades. Here it is again;
Page Not Found
But Trump doesn't represent the working man, either.
Before he announced his candidacy for president, I never paid much attention to him. I saw a few references to his "apprentice" shows, and I sure didn't like some arrogant rich guy looking down his nose and telling people "you're fired". But I didn't hate him, because I knew he didn't have the power to fire me. He didn't have the power to fire a few hundred million Americans, and I figured he was aware of that. So when he made his presidential announcement, I listened with an open mind. What he said made sense, in U.S. trade problems, in big government restrictions on commerce within the U.S. etc.
Like many Americans, I wasn't burning with jealousy of him because of his success, or his tireless ambition. That's the main reason he's so hated, but some people's jealousy isn't so intense that they won't change their minds once they see the seemingly drastic things he has to do, to undo the damage that's been done over the past several decades. He'll get a comfortable win for re-election in 4 years.
...but in reality all Trump promised was to make the United States the baddest-ass country in the world, one that would be respected or else.
He promised a lot more than that.
This evidently has some strong appeal, but it contains no economic promise.
It contains plenty more economic promise than gay rights and abortion rights and global warming mandates.
How fast will the common man wake up? Will it happen when his insurance disappears? When his fishing streams disappear?
Fishing streams contain economic promise?
Trump is a populist with an amazing ability to convince people he's on their side.
Just like the jealous news media has an amazing ability to convince people that he's not. Should be a fun 4 years to see who's right!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 02-02-2017 1:30 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Percy, posted 02-04-2017 6:17 PM marc9000 has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(3)
Message 279 of 4573 (798650)
02-04-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by marc9000
02-04-2017 9:31 AM


Castro
I don't think you'll find anything on the net that indicates Trump admires anything about the way Putin treats his people.
quote:
He does have an 82% approval rating
quote:
{Putin has} great control over his country
quote:
It is always a great honor to be so nicely complimented by a man so highly respected within his own country and beyond
quote:
Look at Putin -- what he's doing with Russia -- I mean, you know, what's going on over there. I mean this guy has done -- whether you like him or don't like him -- he's doing a great job in rebuilding the image of Russia and also rebuilding Russia period,
quote:
Putin has big plans for Russia. He wants to edge out its neighbors so that Russia can dominate oil supplies to all of Europe...I respect Putin and Russians but cannot believe our leader (Obama) allows them to get away with so much...Hats off to the Russians
quote:
I think our country does plenty of killing also {defending Putin's killings of journalists and political opponents
quote:
I will tell you, in terms of leadership, he's getting an A
quote:
. If he says great things about me, I'm going to say great things about him. I've already said, he is really very much of a leader. I mean, you can say, 'Oh, isn't that a terrible thing' -- the man has very strong control over a country.
So he certainly has admiration for Putin, yes?
Sanders admired Castro for the way he treated his people, the way he governed his society.
He actually said
quote:
In 1961, [America] invaded Cuba, and everybody was totally convinced that Castro was the worst guy in the world {that} all the Cuban people were going to rise up in rebellion against Fidel Castro. They forgot that he educated their kids, gave their kids health care, totally transformed society. You know, not to say Fidel Castro and Cuba are perfect — they are certainly not — but just because Ronald Reagan dislikes these people does not mean to say the people in these nations feel the same.
So they expected this tremendous uprising in Cuba, it never came. And if they are expecting a tremendous uprising in Nicaragua they are very very mistaken
So the point of is comments is clear - he was saying that a civil uprising / coup / revolution doesn't happen because America doesn't like leaders but because the people don't like their leaders. Since Castro was doing things that kept the people placated such as feeding them and providing education and healthcare the Bay of Pigs action was doomed.
As for Nicaragua, Bernie was right. The people didn't do a tremendous uprising. Reagan knew it too presumably which is why he funded a terrorist group to try and achieve those ends. In the end it was a political coalition that won an election, not a revolution, that overthrew the Sandinistas - in part due to people fearing the US funded terrorists continuing to engage in actions that were killing tens of thousands of people if the Sandinistas stayed in power.
Context. Both Trump and Sanders have it at their disposal. Trump is praising Putin for his strong leadership and internal approval while disagreeing with some of his actions, Sanders is acknowledging Castro improved life for the common people and suggesting this would inhibit a revolution against him by sufficiently giving him internal approval while acknowledging Castro was not perfect and held power undemocratically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by marc9000, posted 02-04-2017 9:31 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by marc9000, posted 02-05-2017 1:49 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 287 by marc9000, posted 02-05-2017 1:52 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(6)
Message 280 of 4573 (798693)
02-04-2017 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by marc9000
02-04-2017 9:56 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
marc9000 writes:
That's right, the basics of living and the concerns of the working man grow more obvious when the left doesn't show understanding of issues like the runaway national debt,...
But this is a great example of why Trump worries so many. The large increase in the national debt as a percentage of GDP during the Obama years (continuing a trend begun during the Bush administration) was made necessary by the bailouts, stimulus programs and assistance programs put in place after the financial collapse, which occurred because of Republican rollbacks of Glass-Steagal regulations during the Bush years, and which was the worst recession since the Great Depression.
The 2008 financial collapse made clear the necessity of regulations like Glass-Steagal, and so they were replaced by the Dodd-Frank regulations during the Obama years, but Trump wants to roll them back, exposing us to the risk of another financial collapse in the future.
...or enormous government regulations that have small business closures now outnumbering small business openings for the first time in decades.
I think the decline in new business starts is less a result of regulations than of the lack of availability of loan money. The Dodd-Frank financial controls are in part responsible because they force banks to carry greater reserves, making less money available for loans, particularly for the more risky loans associated with new businesses. The rollbacks Trump envisions should make loan money more available, but it also exposes us to greater risks of financial stresses bringing on another collapse. I hope the rollbacks are done carefully.
But I didn't hate him,...
I don't hate Trump either. He's scary because he's uninformed, undisciplined, uncaring, vindictive and impulsive, characteristics made all the more clear by his incredible record during his short time in office. He's caused turmoil, fear and confusion in almost everything he's done, foreign affairs and immigration in particular.
What he said made sense, in U.S. trade problems,...
Trade is another area where Trump is so scary. Trade is not a problem, it's a benefit. Free trade makes all countries wealthier. It is a true dilemma that our high wages cause low-skill manufacturing jobs to flee overseas to lower wage venues, but high wages and low-skill jobs cannot coexist. Low-skill manufacturing jobs will only stage a comeback in the US when Americans begin accepting $4/hour wages, and I don't think anyone sees that happening anytime soon. Trumps attacks on free trade will only make economic conditions worse. Certainly they will cause higher prices.
...but in reality all Trump promised was to make the United States the baddest-ass country in the world, one that would be respected or else.
He promised a lot more than that.
Well, yes, he did, but grant me some hyperbole in making a point. Certainly what he viewed as making America great again was a big part of his message, given that it was his campaign slogan and all. Is that what you think Trump is doing when he's insulting and terrifying allies, escalating tensions, and stranding helpless families overseas?
Fishing streams contain economic promise?
Maybe you didn't hear, but House Republicans, on the assumption that Trump will sign the bill, passed legislation wiping out the Stream Protection Rule that prevents coal companies from dumping slag and waste into rivers and streams.
Trump is a populist with an amazing ability to convince people he's on their side.
Just like the jealous news media has an amazing ability to convince people that he's not. Should be a fun 4 years to see who's right!
Trump's dismal first couple weeks didn't happen because of the news media. It doesn't take the news media to show Mr. Bombast and Ignorance for what he is. I grew up in New Jersey across the water from New York City - I'm very familiar with Trump from way, way back, and his recent behavior as both campaigner and president give me no reason to change my mind.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by marc9000, posted 02-04-2017 9:56 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2017 6:40 PM Percy has replied
 Message 282 by Riggamortis, posted 02-04-2017 6:57 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 290 by marc9000, posted 02-05-2017 2:58 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 4573 (798695)
02-04-2017 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Percy
02-04-2017 6:17 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
Is that what you think Trump is doing when he's insulting and terrifying allies, escalating tensions
I don't want to speak for marc9000, but yes this is exactly what large blocks of folks say is the reason they voted for Trump. The most often repeated reason I've heard for folks liking Trump is that he is "un-PC", and that he speaks his mind without filters. What you consider to be reckless, and harmful speech, and the fact that it rubs both our friends and allies the wrong way is exactly the behavior that many folks like.
The base, by and large, sees little wrong with Trump at this point. Even though is job performance so far is rated low, most Republicans think he's doing a bang-up job. A small, yet persistent portion of his audience believes Trump over what is reported by any media including Fox.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Percy, posted 02-04-2017 6:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Percy, posted 02-05-2017 8:12 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2380 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 282 of 4573 (798699)
02-04-2017 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Percy
02-04-2017 6:17 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
The 2008 financial collapse made clear the necessity of regulations like Glass-Steagal, and so they were replaced by the Dodd-Frank regulations during the Obama years, but Trump wants to roll them back, exposing us to the risk of another financial collapse in the future.
The fact that our debt based economies are little more than glorified ponzi schemes means that we will always be at risk of a financial crisis. You can't pay back the national debt without destroying your economy unless the private sector replaces the national debt with debt of its own. It's a stupid archaic system imposing debt on everyone, one way or another. No amount of regulation will change that. We don't need better regulation, we need a better system!
ABE- my point is that I don't see any merit in critisizing Trumps move to deregulate the financial system. If he wants to promote economic growth, he has little choice. Arguements that it will produce unsustainable growth are moot due to the fact that the financial system requires constant growth just to give the appearance of sustainablilty. Of course, in the long term, infinite growth is obviously unsustainable. Therefore any arguement citing sustainability must argue for a new system rather than modification or regulation of the existing one.
Edited by Riggamortis, : On topicness..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Percy, posted 02-04-2017 6:17 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3940
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 283 of 4573 (798712)
02-05-2017 1:01 AM


Miss me yet?
Well, maybe. Certainly, if is wasn't for those two wars.
Further reading:
Miss Me Yet? | Snopes.com
Miss Me Yet? - Wikipedia
Moose
TRUMP - MAKE GEORGE W. BUSH GREAT AGAIN!
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add another link.

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 8:13 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 284 of 4573 (798739)
02-05-2017 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by NoNukes
02-04-2017 6:40 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
NoNukes writes:
The most often repeated reason I've heard for folks liking Trump is that he is "un-PC", and that he speaks his mind without filters.
Yes he speaks his mind, not only without filters but without knowledge. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to detect his many demonstrations of ignorance and lack of experience. It's why his administration has already caused an incredible amount of turmoil within the White House, within the country, and around the world. Trump's reality show experience has given him the ability to play to an audience but not the knowledge and skill to run a nation.
This has already become so painfully obvious that no one, Trump supporter or not, can pretend it hasn't happened. Anyone who is unaware that this is no way to run a country isn't deserving of an opinion. Ruling by decree is what happens in dictatorships, and causing turmoil and tension through simple ignorance and naivet is what happens when a charlatan is given the reins of power, witness Berlusconi in Italy.
Is what's going on with the Trump administration what Trump supporters really want to see? These are the acts of someone who makes them feel like the country is in good hands? Has there ever been a presidential performance like this in the history of the country? Well, yes, Nixon, but not until he began being confronted with the problems of Watergate. (It's interesting that Nixon lost the presidency because of a break-in at DNC headquarters, and now no one gets punished when thousands of confidential DNC emails are released.)
The base, by and large, sees little wrong with Trump at this point. Even though his job performance so far is rated low, most Republicans think he's doing a bang-up job. A small, yet persistent portion of his audience believes Trump over what is reported by any media including Fox.
A sad commentary.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2017 6:40 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by NoNukes, posted 02-05-2017 4:14 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 285 of 4573 (798740)
02-05-2017 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Minnemooseus
02-05-2017 1:01 AM


Re: Miss me yet?
TRUMP - MAKE GEORGE W. BUSH GREAT AGAIN!
And he makes Nixon look honest by comparison.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-05-2017 1:01 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024