Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 52 (9178 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: Anig
Upcoming Birthdays: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,106 Year: 5,363/9,624 Month: 388/323 Week: 28/204 Day: 4/24 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Modulous
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 76 of 1006 (798647)
02-04-2017 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dawn Bertot
02-04-2017 12:46 AM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
You act morally because of the intrinsic law put inside of you by the creator.
I agree. We just disagree over the fact that this creator is divine. I see no reason to suppose the creator is divine, or has infinite wisdom. I see reason to suppose the contrary.
. You miss the point. If I adopt the Naturalistic doctrine, it's either evil or its not. Since it's not,and humans are on the same scale, it would not be evil for humans to kill and eat other humans.
What do you think the 'Naturalistic doctrine' is?
If morality does not come from an independent source, infinite in knowledge, then there is only relativism and subjective rambling.
Which would explain why everybody disagrees all the time. Huh, this theory seems to have legs after all. Or did God put different absolute moralities inside us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-04-2017 12:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 520 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 77 of 1006 (798651)
02-04-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dawn Bertot
02-03-2017 1:06 PM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
Dawn bertot writes:
... you change the word moral and it's meaning to suit your purposes
Well yes, morality does change to suit the purposes and circumstances of the society involved.
Dawn Bertot writes:
HENCE NO ACTUAL MORALITY
No absolute morality, no. In fact, it's people who believe in absolute morality who have no actual morality. All you're doing is following orders. There's a reason why that isn't an excuse for flouting actual morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-03-2017 1:06 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-05-2017 1:02 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 520 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 78 of 1006 (798653)
02-04-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dawn Bertot
02-04-2017 12:46 AM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
Dawn Bertot writes:
You act morally because of the intrinsic law put inside of you by the creator.
Then it isn't rational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-04-2017 12:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 79 of 1006 (798658)
02-04-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dawn Bertot
02-04-2017 12:46 AM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
You act morally because of the intrinsic law put inside of you by the creator.
But I don't act morally. I've picked up sticks on Saturday. I've eaten shellfish. I've worn garments woven out of more than one kind of fabric.
And more generally it seems that we don't all have the same intrinsic law put inside of us by God, since we all think that different things are right and wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-04-2017 12:46 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 02-04-2017 12:09 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 12:18 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 90 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-05-2017 1:04 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34126
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 80 of 1006 (798661)
02-04-2017 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2017 11:23 AM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
And more generally it seems that we don't all have the same intrinsic law put inside of us by God, since we all think that different things are right and wrong.
And if you actually read the Bible stories you will see that the God character really hasn't a clue about what absolute morality or even common morality entails. In the Bible it is even necessary for a common human to educate the God character on how to behave morally.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2017 11:23 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 1006 (798663)
02-04-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2017 11:23 AM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
That's not the Moral Law. The Moral Law is based on the Ten Commandments, it's about lying and murdering and adultery and coveting and stealing, and of course you disobey those too because we all do, but you aren't asked to obey the specific laws God gave to Israel, the food laws, the fabric law, the Sabbath observance laws. And of course you know that Christ fulfilled them all so you're just being an obfuscator as usual anyway.
The Law written on the human heart isn't a perfect reflection of the written Law in the Old testament, because we're fallen and get our own ideas mixed up with God's, but I'm sure even you would acknowledge that you have a moral code of your own, and that reflects your having the image of God in you (much as I might want to dispute that at times).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2017 11:23 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Porosity, posted 02-04-2017 3:33 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 84 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2017 5:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Porosity
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


Message 82 of 1006 (798681)
02-04-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
02-04-2017 12:18 PM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
It's impossible for you to have a moral compass if you need a book to tell you what morality is.
The bible is evil and Immoral.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 12:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6438
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(5)
Message 83 of 1006 (798683)
02-04-2017 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


The religious right have managed to elect a moral monster as US president.
How dare they lecture us on morals.
HOW DARE THEY.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2017 3:56 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 84 of 1006 (798689)
02-04-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
02-04-2017 12:18 PM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
The Law written on the human heart isn't a perfect reflection of the written Law in the Old testament, because we're fallen and get our own ideas mixed up with God's ...
And so that explains why us all having the same moral law written on our hearts by the same god looks exactly like us not all having the same moral law written on our hearts by the same god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 02-04-2017 12:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8612
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 85 of 1006 (798701)
02-04-2017 7:12 PM


Back Atchya.
Any human being who cannot determine and accept a basic secular human morality in their society is mentally sociopathic. For the less extreme of this condition there are surrogates ready for the deficient individual to adopt with a more-or-less rigorous training and enforcement regimen.
Unfortunately for humanity, religious inculcation in non-secular segments of societies is so prevalent that the religious morality-of-the-chosen-cult is often enforced through mental brutality seeking to replace the natural secular morality that would develop within most members of the society.
The danger is that, while all moralities are relative, natural secular moralities seldom turn evil except in the most extreme circumstances while religious moralities manifest evil with great regularity in human history. When these evils arise, in the secular moral society there is a natural base upon which the evil can be recognized and, depending on circumstance, corrected. In the religious morality-of-the-chosen-cult the religious morality is whatever the priests so determine as their religious justification/interpretation. The inculcated adherents no longer have any natural way to see or correct the religious-moral evil from within the religiously determined framework to which they are so rigorously forced to adhere.
When religious moralities turn evil, as they all eventually and periodically do, the only corrective mechanism available is a strong secular society steeped in natural secular morality.
As proof of this proposition I offer the same evidence as the OP.


  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 86 of 1006 (798707)
02-04-2017 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Riggamortis
02-04-2017 4:03 AM


Riga writes
What does Romans 2:14 prove? That even the writers of the bible knew they needed to make up an excuse for why non-believers could also be moral beings?Whoopppdeeeddoooo Basil!
You don't have access to this infinite mind though do you? You use a very finite book and your own/church's subjective interpretation of that book to form your moral code. The reality that Christians can't agree among themselves on what is moral proves that your morality is equally subjective and inconsistent. There's nothing rational or objective about it, sorry, there's no way around that.
Well don't mean to mean here but since these are just observations, asserions and not actual arguments, not much to response to here. I will though
RAZD asked me for an example of what else God has done besides create the world. I gave him one that could be verified in reality, the moral law placed on the heart
The infinte source tells us in Jeremiah 10:23 that it is not in man to direct his steps. So even if he has a perfect source he might still get things wrong. Duh. The source however is perfect
Yes,we have access to this infinte mind, through not only natural law, the law of the heart, intrinsic law but also specific revelation. Since , there is,ample evidence for both in reality , all u need to do is make that evidence vanish.
My response to,your post is adequate to the evidence to the contrary. The moral law that I can see is still there
Your god is not part of objective reality so you haven't a leg to stand on. Demonstrate that your god is part of our objective reality or admit that you have no objective basis for your moral compass, either.
If absolute morality can only come from an infinite mind, then it seems to me that you must demonstrate the existence of an infinite mind in order to claim that an absolute morality is even possible. Good luck with that!
There is more than enough evidence to support the existence of an infinite God. I'll be happy to debate to debate that in another thread, should you wish to do so. However, here Rig we are assuming what the results and logical conclusions would be if we adopted each other's position for the sake of argument. Try to stay up ok. For example, I'm ASSUMING your Naturalistic position to follow it to its logical conclusions.
If you could for the sake of argument adopt the characteristics of the God of the Bible, ie infinte in knowledge, we can see where that might lead. Even so I have already provided an EXAMPLE of his existence in the form of the moral law
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Riggamortis, posted 02-04-2017 4:03 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Riggamortis, posted 02-05-2017 8:33 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 87 of 1006 (798708)
02-04-2017 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
02-04-2017 4:11 AM


qsWhat has atheism got to do with morality?
Does your thesis work equally well as
Hindism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals? Or
Ancestor Worship Cannot Rationally Explain Morals? Or
Spaghetti Cannot Rationally Explain Morals?[/qs]
Should just ask do morals exist in a strictly Naturalistic world. No

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2017 4:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 3:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 88 of 1006 (798709)
02-04-2017 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by RAZD
02-04-2017 8:32 AM


Re: enlightened self-interest
RAZD writes
Being a deist I have no need to assume any "command is according to the same source, infinte in knowledge" as they would be unknown, so no I do not accept your assumption, you have to demonstrate it. Your non-response on the issue of stoning shows thatyouare not accepting a "command is according to the same source, infinte in knowledge" but a position that is more socially acceptable.
I'm assuming your using the Bible for your source that God told them to stone someone correct, if not what what source are using. So the same source tells us that this same God is infinte in knowledge, omniscience. If this is not the case, then there is also no need for me to believe, YOU BELIEVE, that God actually asked someone to stone someone else
Try to atleast be legitimate and rational. Double talk is not necessary,, if you cant handle the argument.
Tostart with I said "rather consistent" not absolutely consistent. Would you not agree that 99% consistent would be "rather consistent" yes? That thispredominantconsistency could be different in different cultures and still be an operating moral system withing that culture? That different cultures could differ more between cultures than is seen within a culture?
Well no I was just trying to be kind In relationship to the fact that no matter how much consistency you think you have, that If it is less than perfect knowledge it's subjective nonsense. The word Moral implies by its very nature a standard, if there is no standard then there is no reason to call anything evil, bad or wrong. Now you could call it correct or incorrect, but that would only be if it conformed to some known fact in reality. But not right or wrong.
The moment an Atheist opens his mouth and starts claiming someone is moral or immoral, he involves him or herself in the worst form of contradiction.
Sadly this is not an example in reality, it is a quote from a book, and you have not yet demonstrated the veracity of the book. You could just as well quote Shakespeare or theBhagavad Gita. Truly sad.
Well this is proof positive you have no intention of being objective. You ask for an example from something God did besides create the universe, then I give you a clear cut example, by demonstrating the visible morality In man, his sense of right and wrong, sense of ought and these kinds of things. That's PHYSICAL RIGHT?. But Because I was able to provide an answer, your best response Is I don't like it
Doesn't matter that it's out of a book, I can see it in reality. Do you have any other questions you'd like me to answer?
Curiously I will choose a known finite over an unknown and unknowable infinite, and point you back to the example of the stoning issue to show you thatyoudo not pick your infinite over the finite.
Enjoy[
Not surprisingly, again you miss the point. It's not a matter of what you choose, it's a matter of what the implications are if such an infinite, all knowing being does not exist. That being that you are involved in the worst form of contradiction, NOT Just BECAUSE he may not exist, but because subjective can never be objective, which means morality, if you want to call it that, is nothing of the sort
You could not provide me with an example that would not involve itself in the worst form of contradiction
On the other hand, there would not be anything objectively wrong with a dog chasing down a rabbit to kill it, than one human killing another in the octagon, correct? Not in your reality. How long do u think it will be before it will be acceptable to fight and kill one another for sport in the ring.. Hmmmmm? I believe they were called gladiators. Is that murder, evil, moral or immoral, right wrong. You fellas tell using this massively subjective "Morality" you possess
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2017 8:32 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 2:04 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 89 of 1006 (798713)
02-05-2017 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
02-04-2017 10:38 AM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
Now here's the punny fart. In your Naturalistic worldview, nothing of which you just said has any real meaning, because there is no value in that world view. How could there be it's just matter in motion. How could you demonstrate otherwise. If I disagree with your above statement, which of us is correct right or wrong. See your problem
So if your follow the laws of your land, which I assume some you believe to moral, your a evil person for following orders?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 02-04-2017 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 1:14 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 90 of 1006 (798714)
02-05-2017 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2017 11:23 AM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
And more generally it seems that we don't all have the same intrinsic law put inside of us by God, since we all think that different things are right and wrong.
No one said you don't have the freewill to ignore the intrinsic law inside of you anymore than you would a traffic law. You seem especially wilfully ignorant and bent on ignoring his intrinsic law. You are a perfect example of why we know its there
Maybe you were created for just that reason. Just a Naturalistic thought

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2017 11:23 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-05-2017 9:38 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024