Let's face it...

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Originally posted by joz:
The other point I have been trying to make is that the whole concept of free will is inadmissible if God punishes people before they use that free will to choose to sin. In effect predetermining that they will sin before they make their free will choice not to....

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I completly proved that point wrong.Because you can't do something doesn't mean you can't try to do something.That concept is really that simple to understand.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
I completly proved that point wrong.

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Because you can't do something doesn't mean you can't try to do something.

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That concept is really that simple to understand.

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Im sorry but you have not...You have to prove that it is theoretically impossible for man not to sin...Otherwise your concept of original sin is meaningless...But if you prove original sin in that way you have in effect predestined every human to ever live to sin therefore they have no free will not to sin therefore it is immoral for God to punish them if they have no choice....

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Originally posted by joz:
Im sorry but you have not...

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You have to prove that it is theoretically impossible for man not to sin...

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Otherwise your concept of original sin is meaningless...

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But if you prove original sin in that way you have in effect predestined every human to ever live to sin therefore they have no free will not to sin therefore it is immoral for God to punish them if they have no choice....

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Do you think there is one person who has ever lived on this earth who hasn't made a mistake?

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Originally posted by redstang281:
Do you think there is one person who has ever lived on this earth who hasn't made a mistake?

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No...Doesn`t mean it is theoreticaly impossible though....

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Originally posted by joz:
No...

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Doesn`t mean it is theoreticaly impossible though....

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If you could show me someone who has nev
er made a mistake than maybe you would have something there.I think you're just trying your hardest not to see my point.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
I ask athiest and evolutionist to think in terms of creation for one momment please. If everyone from Adam until present day obeyed the law in the bible of waiting until marriage to have sex, don't you think std's would barely be anything of a problem?

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I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex.

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But 2 people that are married, & have only had sex with each other can still pass on STDs to each other. Not all STDs are caught JUST during sex. Hepatitis C, HIV/AIDS, for example.So, having done everything right, & by Gods rules. The couple still die because the man tried to help an AIDS infected crash victim. Contracted AIDS & gave it to his wife.These two people were killed by an STD, that you say was SPECIFICALLY created to kill people who have abused his gift of sex. This couple actually fulfilled all Gods requirements for having sex & were killed by an STD anyway.How so?------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by mark24:
But 2 people that are married, & have only had sex with each other can still pass on STDs to each other. Not all STDs are caught JUST during sex. Hepatitis C, HIV/AIDS, for example.

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So, having done everything right, & by Gods rules. The couple still die because the man tried to help an AIDS infected crash victim. Contracted AIDS & gave it to his wife.

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Not commiting adultry is just one of the rules. There would be other rules they would have broken. My theory is God created STD's to transmit through sex primarily, but it's not unreasonable to think he uses them in punishment for other sins. No one is without sin.

Well, OK, its just not what you said, thats all.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
If you could show me someone who has nev
er made a mistake than maybe you would have something there.

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I think you're just trying your hardest not to see my point.

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Dont actually need to pal...See if for every choice a human faces there is a choice that avoids sin it is at least theoretically possible that a human can live without sin... Therefore no original sin...If that sinless option is not present at each decision then the plenum of solutions has been constricted to a state where he cannot avoid sin... Ergo no free will....your turn...

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Originally posted by joz:
Dont actually need to pal...

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See if for every choice a human faces there is a choice that avoids sin it is at least theoretically possible that a human can live without sin... Therefore no original sin...

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If that sinless option is not present at each decision then the plenum of solutions has been constricted to a state where he cannot avoid sin... Ergo no free will....

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your turn...

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The bible has so many rules it is impossible for man to follow all of them all the time.Don't lie, Don't be greedy, Don't hate people, don't take Vengence... etc..Some sins are easier for some people to avoid, but the people is that no one can avoid committing any sins.Besides which, just because God has the ability to know the future of a person doesn't mean he controls their will.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
The bible has so many rules it is impossible for man to follow all of them all the time.

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Don't lie, Don't be greedy, Don't hate people, don't take Vengence... etc..

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Some sins are easier for some people to avoid, but the people is that no one can avoid committing any sins.

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Besides which, just because God has the ability to know the future of a person doesn't mean he controls their will.

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If you are going to use the reply quote feature then actually address the argument you quote instead of dogmatically repeating your stock answer....Once again.."See if for every choice a human faces there is a choice that avoids sin it is at least theoretically possible that a human can live without sin... Therefore no original sin...If that sinless option is not present at each decision then the plenum of solutions has been constricted to a state where he cannot avoid sin... Ergo no free will...."You cannot just dogmatically state that it is impossible for people to avoid sinning you must justify it with something other than..."name one person who has never made a mistake..." This only shows that such an occurrence is improbable NOT impossible...The only way you can do this is to show a case where all the options open to an individual lead to sin...If you do that you disallow free will in any meaningful sense of the words....Your go bud....

[b] [QUOTE] "See if for every choice a human faces there is a choice that avoids sin it is at least theoretically possible that a human can live without sin... Therefore no original sin...
[/b][/QUOTE]You don't understand the concept of the sin.In your oppinion it is improbably that a man can never make a mistake, but not impossible.However, God knows better.Besides Jesus, Adam was the best chance at living a life without sin, but he failed. The bible says Jesus was the only one who did not sin.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] You don't understand the concept of the sin.

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In your oppinion it is improbably that a man can never make a mistake, but not impossible.

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However, God knows better.

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Besides Jesus, Adam was the best chance at living a life without sin, but he failed. The bible says Jesus was the only one who did not sin.
[/QUOTE]No I dont mean mistakes....(an explanation is in order I am not aware of any part of the bible that says getting a math problem incorrect is a sin... So I dont mean mistakes I mean sinning)....Secondly you only attempted to address one side of my argument. Please address the argument in its complete form....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 12-17-2001]

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Originally posted by joz:
No I dont mean mistakes....(an explanation is in order I am not aware of any part of the bible that says getting a math problem incorrect is a sin... So I dont mean mistakes I mean sinning)....

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Secondly you only attempted to address one side of my argument. Please address the argument in its complete form....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 12-17-2001]

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A mistake is accidently doing something you didn't mean to do. God has a very long, very complicated list of laws. So if you try your whole life not to break one of the laws you are bond to make a mistake.greed, pride, lust, etc... all sins.There's really nothing to argue here. If you really want to understand the bible maybe you should start by reading it and going to church.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
A mistake is accidently doing something you didn't mean to do. God has a very long, very complicated list of laws. So if you try your whole life not to break one of the laws you are bond to make a mistake.

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greed, pride, lust, etc... all sins.

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There's really nothing to argue here. If you really want to understand the bible maybe you should start by reading it and going to church.

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I disagree, You claim that while we do have free will it is also impossible not to sin...I argued that either it is not impossible but improbable not to sin OR we have no free will in the theologically important area of committing sin or not...Answer the argument please....